Forums 4 Fans » Television » Roswell (1) Topic Subject: Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology - In Review - Thread #59

Posted 06-17-2002 06:24 PM by Zero     Welcome to the Table of Contents to the Introduction to the 59th Thread :grin: of the continuing discussion of "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology." Only – this may very well be the final and last thread – so we might consider this a Review thread! Of course, I’m always up for making #60! The original Introduction became so long, Shapeshifter graciously agreed to host it on a website. Below is the Table of Contents to the Intro with links! Hopefully, this will continue to make this Thread accessible to everyone interested in Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology, even if it is in retrospect to the show. The Intro includes summaries of all our past discussions through the end of Season 2, so is well worth reading if you are NEW to our thread, or watching Roswell for the first time on Sci Fi Channel! I never got around to updating the Intro to include Season 3 stuff, since there wasn’t a lot – though we all loved “CCChanges.” Thank you Aaron and Gretchen!! But many have had some wonderful discussions on the last couple of threads – so I’m hoping someone will post a summary of that. Here is the link to Thread #58. (All of our observations from Seasons 1&2 added to our belief in Liz’s strength, the Hero’s Journey she was on and importance of Liz to the aliens – whether they knew and appreciated it or not!) We are all also happy that Max finally came to his senses and married Liz! It was obvious that her powers were maturing and that she was his perfect soulmate! IF only we had time to follow them on their journey! [b] I also wanted to say one last thing just in case this is the last Thread! This Thread was made such a wonderful place to visit and post because of all of YOU! So – THANK YOU Shapeshifter, Grace Kel, Reggie, Steph, Melodious, Zara, Alexis, Metaphysical Girl, Aldebaran, Essence, kla, Nemo, elenac, Healersbabe, provence, Vihmakass, and all the rest of you who I’m “spacing” on right now – for making this the best Thread to chat on around!!! As to the final episode - I might normally be a bit critical of some of it, but knowing it was the last, I let most CHADS slide, and focused on the great parts. I loved that the cerebral one of the group - Liz - got the power to see the future - and therefore, change it! This was a natural flow from TEOTW to me, and her character formation. While I would have loved to have seen more done with Liz's developing powers, I appreciated going out on the note that once again she was the source of their salvation! I adored Max's declaration to her on the balcony - and thought it a fitting place since this was where Future Max potentially destroyed her dreams of ever getting that marriage proposal. I also thank the writers for ending as we began - with Liz's journal. I will not regret the decisions made that took the show in directions that were not fruitful or appreciated by me. I will focus on the wonderful experience this show brought me though stretching my imagination and introducing me to all you wonderful people! It has been an Alien Blast!! And I will always have fond memories of you all and the show. [/b] So, HAVE FUN reading the Intro, and hopefully, it will refresh your memory about a specific topic or a specific date that causes you to think up some new theory – or remember a wonderful memory! The links make that much easier! (THANK YOU Shapeshifter!) Major changes are “starred” for ease of reading if you don’t want to read the entire thing![/b] There is never a dull moment on this Thread! We appreciated the refocus during the end of Season 2 on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) :grin: Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure (which I collectively refer to as the “Stepford Max” Chronicles in the Intro) had many inducing scenes, we were provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we had so many newbies joining into the discussion last summer - which was wonderful! So, ENJOY! TABLE OF CONTENTS Background Basic Thesis Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY! What is Subject for Discussion? Liz's importance to the Pod Squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome! Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection Consequence of the Connection - the Change? Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really? Granolith - How does it fit in? Destiny - Liz and Max! Follow Your Heart Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything! Chakras Einstein's Light Cone Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up! The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things? The Catalyst - Liz! Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in? Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run" Hero Journey - Liz's Path Grandma Claudia - the first connection? Lifebonds vs. Soulmates Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection? Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars! Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max! Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz? Yin/Yang – Liz/Max Skins - What lies below the surface? Shapeshifters - Are there more than one? Horray!! We got a second shapeshifter with the introduction of the (evil??) Cal Langley, producer extraordinaire, in Hollywood! But is he Tic Tac?? Class is still out on that one, but Cal was in Roswell in 1959 – the year Atherton was killed, and we know that Cal is a killer – though his killing method seems to be slightly different (and more intense) than Harding’s and how Atherton was killed. Time will tell how Cal fits in, but obviously he has been “watching” for a while! Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation Mythology! Dates Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates! New ones yet to be added: 1959 – “They are Among Us” is filmed in Roswell, and the lead actress is “fried” by Cal Langley (Secrets & Lies) 9/24/2000 – Valenti stops visiting his dad (Secrets & Lies) Fall 2001 – Max and Liz commit armed robbery in search for the “ship” (Busted) 10/31/2001 – Valenti visits his dad, and Max discovers a second shapeshifter – Cal Langley (Secrets & Lies) In Summary Finally, (I always had to add this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!" A couple of general Thread "Rules" - Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. And discussion of the books is okay – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read them! Thanks! As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and avenged his death! Zero I Shall Believe! Thanks for the Memories!

Posted 06-17-2002 06:35 PM by shapeshifter     Thank you , Zero, for giving us another thread! Right now I am thinking how Liz foreseeing the murder plot at the end of this season has completed the cycle that began with her flashes of the orb's burial when she kissed Max in Season 1. Also, I so want to see Roswell, The Movie, complete with colored auras like in the books.

Posted 06-18-2002 12:48 PM by Zara     Hi y'all, How odd that I had to travel thousands of miles on vacation to see a Roswell episode! I spent the last few days in Montreal and Quebec City, where I saw Roswell (in French, no less) on some cable station... They were showing the Maxcedo episode! (Max to the Max) Got to see Agent Pierce again! You all may have already noted this (I'm a bit behind with the thread since vacation)-- it looks like Momo was top bidder on Liz' ketchup drenched bullet-holed waitress uniform on Ebay. Hasn't Momo posted here before? Or perhaps on RATDG? Though I couldn't let myself bid on the real thing, I did save pictures of the uniform, the apron and the headbands for a future sewing project. Not a bad Halloween costume, I'm thinking...

Posted 06-18-2002 07:56 PM by shapeshifter     Zara, very cool idea for the costume. Will a ketchup bottle be part of it? And I had to travel over 1,000 miles to be abducted (not really ) by a cab driver and a cousin and taken down Hwy 285 and Roswell Road (no kidding about the road names!)--definitely some Roswell moments. I also sat in on a Science Fiction lecture in which some noted authors said that the purpose of SF is not to predict the future, but to prevent it. EOTW anyone? Roswell has always been a meta-experience for me. [ 06-18-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ]

Posted 06-19-2002 07:46 PM by Zara     SS, do you think I need two uniforms, one with the bullet hole and ketchup and one without? I could see how they'd both be great to have. How expensive would that seafoam poly/cotton be, anyway... The 285S highway sign was also for sale on ebay -- too rich for my blood, but that would have been a great memento to have hanging around somewhere. I like that idea about the purpose of SF being to prevent the future. I don't know if I get it, but I like it! Sounds like an interesting discussion.

Posted 06-20-2002 05:07 PM by shapeshifter     Zara, definitely 2 costumes! Over at the blu5 board I found this interesting "Season 4 Spoiler" dated March 17. Although it was obviously not destined to be, it is interesting in that it is totally based on Liz being Important to the Alien Mythology: From zan March 17th/2002 ... --UNOFFICAL RUMORS OF WHAT'S NEXT... (If these prove to be false, don't blame me-I'm just the messenger boy). Pretty awesome, yes they are. I hope that it will come true...PLEASE PLEASE. I re-wrote what I heard in my own words. It is a little early for details to be known, but they probably wrote the first script to show to UPN so they can save their butts---looks like a pretty good chance they will Max and Liz are no longer living in Roswell, and have made a temporary/permanent (?) home elsewhere... together in marriage ("Graduation" 3.18). The fourth season premiere (if UPN picks up Roswell for another season) will deal with Liz, who keeps having a recurring dream of symbols in the desert. She soon finds that she is somehow being lead back to Roswell, driven by this dream which may turn out to be answered in Riverdog's cavern. Liz tells Max she has to find out what's happening, but Max says it's too dangerous to get that close to home. She tells him she's going, she has to find out where this is all leading. Max tells her he will go with, when the time is right. Liz can't wait any longer, so she heads off to the tribe, without Max, his consent, or his knowledge. When she heads "home", the visions begin to become clearer and clearer until she reaches the cavern. Eddie welcomes her, saying Riverdog has been waiting. Uneasy and concerned, she steps inside, and finds Riverdog, a burnt hole in his chest. He manages to tell her that someone is after her, and that she and Max have changed destiny. He dies, and soon glowing handprints begin to appear on the walls, leading to a few bloody symbols that have been sketched. She knows what they mean (they're familiar), she screams, and runs. She's heading back home to Max when a car screeches out in front of her...the FBI. Supposedly, this is supposed to be an arc that will answer the question of Liz's relevance to the Pod Sqaud. The FBI involvement will be another storyline for Max, Michael, and Isabel to save Liz...like in "The White Room". S4 will deal with a more mythological sci-fi, but will focus more on the relationships with Max & Liz and Maria & Michael. Isabel is alone. She has become isolated from the rest of the World (like eary S1 Isabel), Jim is deputy and will sneak around the sheriff's office for information, and it is a possibility a new villian will arrive that will compromise Liz's life, due to the new found destiny. AND, THE BEST OF ALL: They will have ongoing continous storylines. No more of the two-episodes, we're done. S4 will go slower, to focus more on the teens' isolation. The hurt and pain they all went through, to become what they are today.

Posted 06-20-2002 06:39 PM by Zara     Good stuff! Wonder where that came from... (I mean other than blu5, of course.) [ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: Zara ]

Posted 06-20-2002 08:15 PM by shapeshifter     I'd love to know if it was from JK et al or a fanfic--but either way... My daughter is away for several weeks, so after hours I have embarked on a Roswell-a-thon. I'm up to Leaving Normal, and when Liz is at the hospital, just before she decides to call Max, she looks at that picture in the phone booth that says 'Radiology vs Neurology,' which we figured were 2 teams of hospital sports enthusiasts. When I saw it again, I realized that it has 2 meanings: 1) Max (with his powers) is the 'Radiologist', and Grandma Claudia's illness (a stroke) is a neurological disorder--so the sign caused her to think to call Max to heal her Grandma and 2) Max (the 'Radiologist') can heal Liz of her troubled mind IMAGE: www.theddd.net/ln/ln21.jpg (image courtesy of theddd.net.

Posted 06-21-2002 05:03 AM by Zara     Ah! I envy you with your Ros-a-thon! Things are about the opposite here at my house -- a herd of giggling little boys everywhere. (We had spend the night guests last night.) No Roswell for me... Those first ten episodes or so are absolute heaven! Enjoy -

Posted 06-21-2002 01:37 PM by AZfire     well i haven't been here is a really really long time. so just thought i'd stop by and say ALOHA!

Posted 06-21-2002 07:37 PM by Nemo     I just re-watched 285S. In the class where the "cruel and unusual education" assignments were handed out, notice the 3+1 pattern in the stripes on the big kid's shirt.

Posted 06-21-2002 09:09 PM by GraceKel     Hey Mythers just a flyby post, I just thought I would recommend a movie to anyone who likes movies that are moving(emotionally moving) you know like Roswell was in season1-LOL---It is called Life As A House--bring tissue-LOL!!!

Posted 06-22-2002 04:51 AM by Flame boy     Liz is important to the show because if she wasnt shot well there would be no roswell! the story was basically based on her! IMO

Posted 06-22-2002 05:12 PM by GraceKel     Sigh--Yes Flameboy WE certainly agree with that and this was why we became emotionally attached to the show.

Posted 06-23-2002 04:28 PM by shapeshifter     I am in the middle of watching all the eps in order from the beginning (hope to finish by mid-August) and just re-noticed at the beginning of Missing that Liz wonders if the world around her has changed, or if she has changed. I am also rereading the books, and on page 150, Liz uses "a power that she'd always had, maybe locked in one of those mysterious pieces of the brain that seem to have no function." GraceKel, I will pass on a tissue-passing flick, although I did appreciate the end of Leaving Normal when rewatching it recently. And in our finale goodbyes, I think I forgot to tell you how much I appreciated all the things you noticed that the rest of us would have missed.

Posted 06-26-2002 05:33 AM by Vihmakass     i have a dream. ... M.Metz here and reading all theories and spec. and notes what tru 59 LizMyth threads was made...and then she post here and talking us what she thinks about...and ansvering some questions aso... Why? bc she was first storyteller, this is her child. maybe this is possible...somehow?....maybe Zero?...or some letter with all names...or...eh, im silly again or ...?

Posted 06-26-2002 11:42 AM by shapeshifter     quote: Originally posted by Nemo: I just re-watched 285S. In the class where the "cruel and unusual education" assignments were handed out, notice the 3+1 pattern in the stripes on the big kid's shirt. My copy of that ep is too fuzzy to see any patterns, but on rewatching Heat Wave, at the beginning, there are 5 ketchup bottles on the counter, 2 draining into 2 others, and 1 open on the right. I am thinking the upright vessels would represent females, the inverted ones would be male. The four even look like the four square symbol. I can't find a picture of the bottles, but could post the symbol later if anyone is interested. I thought we discussed this before, but a search in the Archives did not turn up anything. Vihmakass, I had Melinda Metz email a long time ago, but lost it in a computer crash.

Posted 06-30-2002 08:50 AM by Vihmakass     quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter: Vihmakass, I had Melinda Metz email a long time ago, but lost it in a computer crash. Shapeshifter ! ou-no! ...but maybe she, bc tv-show is ended, has now time and interest come here and speak with us...?littlebit...? What you think? im very interested how she was feeling about the way how and why show was ending, what she thinking about our posts and how our theories fiting in her Liz character development ideas and...and...and how she feels about somebody else (not JK) contining series filming (s4 or new s1) and is this possible due rights....and... I can ask more questions than...(hmmm...something like: one fool can ask more questions than ....lol) btw. about our tv channels - they dont buy s2/s3.... And i dont know- be sad or happy...(happy bc our fans have one but good season, not s2/s3 crap, sad bc in thous seasons was some good eps. and weding in the end) Back to M.Metz. Is this even possible? or not? ...eh....and i hate 3. page! :P

Posted 06-30-2002 12:00 PM by Reggie     Yay! "Lizology" is back! I looked for it yesterday, through all four pages that are available, and it wasn't there. I thought, "It's gone..." But I'm glad we're back now. (Is this a re-union thread? ) Let's also remember Qfanny, who has not been posting for a while. Liz is not an ! But seriously... THe thing to do is to get hold of Thania St. John and/or David Nutter. They seem to have been the real geniuses behind most of S1. We should ask them how it was supposed to go, before JK got sole control and wrecked the show. If they remember, if they'd tell us, we might just find out what Liz's importance was supposed to have been!

Posted 06-30-2002 09:44 PM by shapeshifter     Reggie, I think when that happens with a thread it's a sort of game of peek-a-boo owing to it's being on the top of the next page but then on the bottom of the last one when you click on the the other. Vihmakass, I will try to locate Melinda Metz (in my spare time ). I am rewatching the series in the light of the recent gossip. It is interesting to notice the subtext of KH & JB and motivation of Shiri. It gives Liz's plight an added sadness. It's interesting how the phrase "out of control" is used in so many episodes (I'm in Season 1) and then at the end of Season 3 we get an ep titled "Control." IMAGE: www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/stuff/QueenLiz2.jpg

Posted 07-02-2002 01:05 PM by maxcedo     On rewatching Crazy: Liz tells them to trust Topolsky because T is now different. Nasedo (or Kal or...?) intervenes. Would Pierce have captured them if the shapeshifter had not intervened? This is the same ss who came back as Hank to prevent suspicions of Michael as the 'last to see him alive.' So is this ss Nasedo, keeping them alive until the time is ripe for his harvest? Or another with a more benign agenda? When Alex is saved from Pierce by Valenti, there is a cross in the background: foreshadowing of his sacrificial lamb role?

Posted 07-02-2002 07:50 PM by Zero     Hi All!! Just swinging by to say "Hello!" But now I'm intriqued by the comment re: "gossip." I'm so out of it - someone will have to fill me in. Shapeshifter - if you want to e-mail me that would be great. Or if someone wants to PM me? Hope you are all doing well! Love that picture of Shiri. Must admit to getting hooked on Smallville - except I like the sidekick girl - Chloe - the best of all! Zero

Posted 07-02-2002 08:54 PM by Nemo     Zero (and anyone else in the Seattle vicinity), I hope you have noticed this thread: Seattle/PNW picnic Sat. July 6

Posted 07-02-2002 10:35 PM by *antarian angel*     Quote: When Alex is saved from Pierce by Valenti, there is a cross in the background: foreshadowing of his sacrificial lamb role? i saw this and thought you could have a point, but i don't exactally get what you mean. in what sence is alex the sacrificial lamb? there could be a few different ways to look at this... also, aside from that, i could be totally wrong here, but i just finished watching 'heat wave' and the thought came to me that what if, subconsiously, liz caused the 'bizare decemberheat wave' because the need to tell alex was building up inside her. she said, right before max came over when she was writing in her journal, that the heat wave had finally broken. i could sooo be looking way too much into this, but i felt i should share anyway. also, i watched 'crazy' and'tess, lies, and videotape' today too and noticed that max started to act unlike himself- aside, of course, of the whole'i must kiss the ***** thing- but he punches michael in 'crazy' and is pushing him in TLandVT right before they find the camera in michael's appt. and also, in 'four square' we all remember when max and tess were out in the desert and max is yelling at her and holding her down on the ground with his hand pushing on her face! as we all know, max is not usually a rough guy, so i thought 'what could make him do that?' then it came to me...Tess. once she showed up, he started acting differently. this could show that liz, not tess, is the one for max because tess made him act out like that. it's obvious that tess is very wrong for him....but we all knew that, didn't we. so let me know what you guys think! love~ sam

Posted 07-03-2002 07:08 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by *antarian angel*: ...in what sense is alex the sacrificial lamb? there could be a few different ways to look at this... I was thinking Tess sacrificed him for her cause--not that she ever thought the cause was "worthy," just that she seemed to really regret killing him. Quote: Originally posted by *antarian angel*: ...i just finished watching 'heat wave' and the thought came to me that what if, subconsiously, liz caused the 'bizare decemberheat wave' because the need to tell alex was building up inside her... Hmmm...interesting....or maybe she caused the heatwave because as part of her "change," she was sort of 'in heat' with Max? This seems similar to the Red Star dying when Zan died. Quote: Originally posted by *antarian angel*: ...also, i watched 'crazy' and'tess, lies, and videotape' today too and noticed that max started to act unlike himself- aside, of course, of the whole'i must kiss the ***** thing- but he punches michael in 'crazy' and is pushing him in TLandVT right before they find the camera in michael's appt. and also, in 'four square' we all remember when max and tess were out in the desert and max is yelling at her and holding her down on the ground with his hand pushing on her face! as we all know, max is not usually a rough guy, so i thought 'what could make him do that?' then it came to me...Tess. once she showed up, he started acting differently. Maybe he was "fighting" the mindwarps, and it came out in aggressive behavior? This reminds me of the effect of the Collective Consciousness in the books, only then Max was dopey, like he was smoking weed, whereas the effect of the Tess warps was more like alcohol in that it made him violent. *antarian angel*, I am going to post this over on the Compare & Contrast thread.

Posted 07-03-2002 08:42 PM by Reggie     I think that Max had kept tight control of himself until he saved Liz. After that, his self-control started to slip. The business with Tess was a further distraction, but I think his control-freak side was clearly visible in Toy House. He intended to get his way, regardless of others' feelings. As things got out of his control, he went farther to try to regain it. Going from pushing Isabel around, to literally pushing Michael around, isn't so much of a stretch.

Posted 07-03-2002 11:56 PM by *antarian angel*     Quote: Maybe he was "fighting" the mindwarps, and it came out in aggressive behavior? that's an interesting idea...i hadn't thought of that, but it does make sence. good thinking! love~ sam

Posted 07-04-2002 03:13 PM by **That*Maria*Girl**     do you no the link to ...The importance of beink Elizabeth

Posted 07-04-2002 09:29 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by **That*Maria*Girl**: do you no the link to ...The importance of beink Elizabeth TMG, Surely that's a typo? Anyway, TIBE, a very Liz-centric FanFic by WR, begins here. In Ask Not, outside the Crashdown, when Max touches Liz's arm & she has a flash, but then tells him she can't be with him, in the background there's sign that says, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone..."

Posted 07-06-2002 11:56 AM by Reggie     Oh, that's funny. Well, both of them. Wouldn't it have been nice, if Liz had said also, "..., because you've got a wife, and I'm just not comfortable with that." Liz walked away from Max when she learned about the marriage; she should voice her concerns at some point. I mean, whether you consider Tess as Max's wife or not (after both King Zan and Queen Ava were killed), that's a BIG issue to deal with. Liz isn't the type to date a married guy. And since Max (at the time) had not definitively stated that they were no longer married, Liz had cause to be concerned. If not alarmed! And I'm basing my comments on The Story Thus Far, not even considering what came after.

Posted 07-09-2002 10:03 AM by maxcedo     There's a lot of discussion about the uncut Graduation with the M/L cementing scene that just sold on ebay for $3,050. I'm assuming they cut it to indicate that Liz & Max were now on the moral high road?

Posted 07-09-2002 10:32 AM by Reggie     No. Moral high road, from the same folks who gave us Baby, It's Spew? The consensus seems to be that it was cut to give the 20-30 seconds to the real star of the show, to say goodbye to her husband. "Maxcedo", huh? Haven't heard from you much lately. Liz is not an

Posted 07-09-2002 12:56 PM by GrhmLz     ***Hi everyone, it's been a little while. *** -Well, I was disappointed by the finale but I knew that I would be. So I can't say I was shocked. But since I was always taken by Liz's connection to the alien mythology, I liked the introduction of her new power. However, I was thinking about something from the previous episode Four Aliens and a Baby. Tess. Aside from the obvious (the writing of course), what was up with her? Did anyone else find it a bit out of character for her to "die" for the group by blowing up the base? And the change of attitude towards Liz? I know that Liz voted "No" in turning her in but so did Max! Why would she get all "sentimental" towards Liz in the manner she did! Well, not that this was intended to go anywhere because Tess could have just been shocked that Liz didn't vote against her when Liz was the one she expected to the most. Afterall, it did appear that she came to a dead end. Khivar turned against her, the military was after her, so what else could she do. There was probably no point in lying to anyone anymore. The point I wanted to get to was the Tess/Liz car scene. Tess admits to Liz in the car that whenever she was with Max she always received these flashes of Max/Liz and that Max was always thinking of her. If we take the theory that Liz was one of the aliens in her past life, I was wondering if Tess could have been referring to past life memories of Max with Liz. Max/Tess were only together in a couple eppys and the only flash I remember Tess receiving was from DEPARTURE after Max kissed Liz in the jeep. I see it as an unseen possibiltiy since Tess was supposedly helping Max to retrieve his memories (aka... Heart of Mine). Tess also stressed to Liz that Max does love her. That could possibly explain away some of Max's confusing emotions. The flashes and feelings he was receiving from his former life were true. They just weren't for Tess. Only Max had no way of knowing that the person he is seeing in his memory from Antar isn't really Tess. Especially if Tess was never really Ava to begin with. All he knows is that Tess appears to have been Ava and she was the one he married. He has no way of knowing at this point that there was someone else he loved or Tess isn't Ava. It is possible that Tess didn't have to do much work at all to deceive him. She just allowed him to believe that his memories were of her when they were really of someone else (LIZ). Just kind of makes you think doesn't it that if she knew all along through flashes and being with Max that he always loved Liz and was thinking about Liz why she would continue to pursue him unless out of some kind of revenge for something? She basically just admitted she knew from the start that Max never wanted her. Apparently, knowing that Max only loved Liz didn't stop her from pursuing him to begin with why would she stop now and "make nice" with Liz? Maybe it's just me but Tess never struck me as the type of character who is going pour her heart to her nemesis unless there is some alterior motive involved! Hey, maybe Tess never came back at all but it's Khivar who killed her on Antar when she returned but came to earth and took on her form to infiltrate the group? Just some ideas for thought! I know the shows over but its still fun to speculate ! -Bye for now and talk to everyone later.

Posted 07-09-2002 03:28 PM by The Real Momo     Hi, thought I'd pop in. First, I just wanted to say, yes, I was the high bidder for Liz's bloodstained Crashdown uniform. My sister and I will be posting pictures on my website in the near future with other items won at auction. Most importantly, in conjunction with Liz, I also have Liz's pajamas, the subject of so much discussion here. These two items are perhaps the two most important pieces of Liz wardrobe in the series, and perhaps the entire series. Now, to Liz. Liz's journey represents the successful completion of the Grail Knight’s quest. Her prize: The King. If we go back to the Grail Legends for a moment, we know that "the king and the land are one". For Liz, she's completed her trials successfully and her reward (simply put), as Grail Knight, becomes Grail Queen. She receives complete fulfillment and becomes the Queen, Keeper of the Grail Castle. Her contribution to the King, Max, is that she initiates his rebirth, or that is, the continuing cycle of birth, death, rebirth. In essense, really, they both were reborn. On one hand, we have the death of the King (Zan), buried in the Pod Chamber (the substitute Avalon), who is reborn (Max) and wallows in a constant state of inertia (much like the wounded and/or ill Fisher King/King Arthur). Along comes a pure, noble knight -Liz (Percival/Gawain/Gahalad) who must face horrific challenges and extreme sacrifices in order to find a way to save the king. Sorely tested, she rises to the occasion by her faith alone, and in the end, literally saves the king with her love (the kiss in Chant Down Babylon). The King is reborn. The cycle is complete. And the cycle begins again ,,, as we have seen it again and again in Roswell. Keep in mind this cycle also applies to Liz. In the beginning, Liz is wounded, dies, is healed by Max. This is most approximate for two reasons: one, because Liz and Max represent the two people who hold the fate of two worlds in their hands -- Max, Antar and Liz, Earth. two, it perpetuates the idea of soulmates. "King, Queen and the land are one." Both Max and Liz represent the health of their respective worlds and the health of each other. They literally have healed each other (divine right of Kings?). And they complete each other. Max admits, "I can't do it without you to Liz" and Liz, to Max, "I would do anything if it meant I could be with you." Neither is whole without the other. In effect, they become "one" and the marriage solidifies the union of two into one. In time, both will be called upon again to perpetually continue to cycle of birth, death, and rebirth -- perhaps in different ways, but it's their lot in life as it is all our lives. This is the "song" that binds them to together as "soulmates" -- through their "undying love" . I always thought the Madame Vivian got it right in EOTW. Alex's fate was sealed that night; Maria's still in flux; and Liz "destined" to get her man. In the deck of the Tarot Cards, the Ace of Cups (The Grail) represents complete fulfillment. And as Madame Vivian assured Liz that night in EOTW, in spite of everything, Liz did get Max in the end. Perhaps, if many of us were listening to the subtext going on amid all the Arthurian drama, we might have realized that Liz and "might for right" or "justice" would win in the end. Certainly, the other factor that we must look back to goes back to Topolsky. Ironically, it is Topolsky who sets in motion the possibilities and some of the life-long lessons to set up Liz and Max for a future together. If you recall, Topolsky says to Liz: "You like to make plans". Liz: "Of course, you have to have a plan." Topolsky: "What about going with the flow?" Liz, emphatically, "No." However, that is exactly what Liz has learned to do -- "go with the flow, lose control, improvise" -- live life as it was intended to be lived. How many of us really wanted to see Liz locked in a research lab for the rest of her life in absolute "nerd"dom, content with her lot, settling for less and not really appreciating "the living of life". Even Maria knew that what they discussed her relationship with Kyle in "Pilot". And ... Topolsky is the first to suggest that Max "come from behind the tree" and through years of fighting against that, by Graduation the lesson is finally driven home: I have to be who I am. Topolsky is the first to suggest Max take his baby steps. Max, to Topolsky: What did you do? Topolsky: I started a conversation with this boy I liked. Topolsky, by that little and large nudge, promotes Max to "come from behind the tree" ... to Liz, the first outsider to accept Max for who he was, warts and all. And by being together, Max and Liz, took some of their worst qualities and turned them into some of their best qualities. Topolsky, the guidance counselor had it right, too. The beginning told us the truth, the middle told us the truth, and the end told us the truth -- Max and Liz were soulmates. In the end, they passed their test. But did we?

Posted 07-09-2002 06:02 PM by shapeshifter     GrhmLz & Momo, Thanks for the awesome posts! I have added them to the Season 3 Theories Archives page. And Momo, on rewatching Season 1 recently, Topolsky's role as soothsayer really stood out to me too. For all the complaints against JK, I do think he never really lost his vision, even when it was obscured by blue jelly fish. BTW, in Surprise, when Valenti & Max are casing Grants motel room, there is a blue fish hanging on the wall. And Momo, TERRIFFIC choices on your ebay purchases! If you get pictures with a digital camera, I'd love to post 'em. Reggie, Yes! I must tell Maxcedo to be sure to log out when he uses my computer at work, as I don't have time to tend to such things myself. He's so out of control at times. P.S. I have added The complete, original discussion of The Science Fiction of River Dog, thanks to friends who share Web space.

Posted 07-09-2002 07:53 PM by Nemo     At a local gathering of Roswellians last weekend, Nana J took a picture that has now been posted to the OTO's thread. On the right are my wife and me, in case anyone is curious. You've seen me before, but for many years my wife has avoided appearing in photographs (except for passport/drivers's-license etc.) so this is the first time in decades that I can show any evidence that she even exists. But without her I wouldn't have known about Roswell -- she's the one who recorded it and told me the next day "You've GOT to see this...."

Posted 07-09-2002 09:26 PM by The Real Momo     hey, shapeshifter ... ! Just for your info, I posted four images on blu5 (on the blu5 convention page). They were intended to help blu 5'ers to pick out the material they needed to make Crashdown waitress uniforms. But I'll be putting up more interesting photos as soon as I can. Should the Liz Mythology threads need a permanent home, I'd be honored to have it on my site if it can't remain here. I have a theory page called the Pod Chamber or at least a link to it (with permission, of course!). However, I hope that while the series may have ended, that Liz mythologers continue to puzzle and learn new things about Liz by revisiting past episodes and continue to contribute new ideas to old themes here. It's really amazing how much can be missed. And this is one of my favorite threads here. This can't be the last one.

Posted 07-10-2002 03:57 PM by Vihmakass     hi! GrhmLz: i rewatched this Tess-blow ep.And yes Tess is littlebit out of her usual character, ok not littlebit - she has big "not Tess" moves.She speaks with Liz like DupeAva. What if this is not Tess but D.Ava who was stoled baby and brings him to Max and Liz? And trying fix Max-Liz relationship abused by Tess (her alter me)? Then her sacrifice make more sense with character development.D.Ava was ounly from NY4 who was capable this kind action (somekind redemption seeking) ups, im speculating again, sry...but i cant hold myself looking somewhere neverland-everland...(hope?) Im glad that Liz thread is still alive!...and has so many amazing posts... Shapeshifter, how you? All ok? and Healersbabe, where you?

Posted 07-10-2002 04:37 PM by Greda     Quote: Originally posted by maxcedo: There's a lot of discussion about the uncut Graduation with the M/L cementing scene that just sold on ebay for $3,050. I'm assuming they cut it to indicate that Liz & Max were now on the moral high road? Does anyone have a link of this item on Ebay.

Posted 07-10-2002 07:26 PM by shapeshifter     Vihmakass, You are still amazing! I love it! I have added it to the S3 Theories Page. Momo, if Ava was pretending to be Tess, how would she fit into the Holy Grail scenario? Greda, Here's the link to the info on the Max/Liz cement scene. And Momo, thanks for the tip on the uniform pix. Right now, the Archives are living on 4 different servers. None of them is connected to FF. (See the pinkish red stuff at the bottom of the Disclaimer Page.) Maybe we can talk about consolidation sometime?

Posted 07-11-2002 10:55 AM by The Real Momo     Greda: I don't think it was the moral high road why the scene was cut. It probably had more to do with making room for commercials or UPN's policy on sex (which given some of their other programs like Buffy) seems unlikely. However, I suspect it was cut for commercial space since the beginning of the episode still carried to TV-MA warning. And judging by Max and Liz's prior behavior, morality didn't enter into it. Had not they been interrupted in the past, the "cementing" would have taken place in "Sexual Healing". Shapeshifter: First, I don't buy Ava stealing the baby and bringing it back to Max and Liz. If the Granilith was gone, Ava had no physical way to get back to Antar. And Tess being "un-Tess-like" may not be fair here. Tess is now a mother and a mother's instinct would be to protect the child first. That would have a direct impact on Tess' character, even to the point of "softening" her and making her more compassionate. However, if you remember, she is harder in her feelings with Max. Her digs were directed at Max, not Liz. What we do know positively that Tess did see Liz in the flash where she kissed Max. Certainly that was because Max was unable to hid his feelings for Liz from Tess. Now Max knew not only was Liz saw in the flashes, but how Liz FELT during those flashes. It's possible that Tess knew how Max really felt also and to carry it a step further, she may known how Liz felt to. This would give Tess a greater understanding of Liz and it gives them a communal bond -- that they share a genuine love for this one man. However, the key as to why Tess tells Liz rests more with Liz's decision NOT to turn Tess over to the military. Liz has one of the strongest motives to turn Tess over to the military, but doesn't. In a way, this was Tess' way of returning the favor and perhaps the first time she really understands what it is to be "half-human". This, more than her blowing up the base, is Tess's atonement for past wrongs and Liz recognizes that. Anyway, back to Ava for a moment. The only way that Ava really fits into the Arthurian theme right now is as a half-sister to Arthur. And that really is the only way she fits in because we have so little info on her. It's known that Arthur had several sisters for siblings, some who remained in obscurity. This, I think, is where Ava falls for now. But I will think on it. I might be overlooking someone. Tess, on the other hand, has taken on a dual role - part Guinevere, part Morgana. Morgana, if you recall, was Arthur's duplicitous half-sister. She seduces Arthur (as Tess did Max) with the primary purpose of getting pregnant and uses this child to betray "the king" as the means of his destruction at the hands of his enemy. In Arthur’s case, the son winds up killing the father in a battle with his enemies. The Tess parellel here is readily apparant, though slightly different. In a minor twist, Tess, uses the child as the means of the destruction of "the king" also -- but in this case, the child is used as the lure to draw the king back to Antar for a "public execution" at the hands of his enemy. Each woman uses the child as the means to destroy the king. However, in Max's case, our human friends are there to prevent "history from repeating itself". Much of that "not repeating of history" can be attributed back to Liz who is now beginning to take on a more Merlin-like qualities (such as her ability to see the future which was one of Merlin's gifts). It is Liz that figures out the mind-warp, that Tess killed Alex, and with the help of Maria and Kyle, get to the pod squad before Tess delivers them also to Kivar. Now that I think about it, Merlin also monkeyed about with "trying to change the future". LOL! Something else Liz has in common with Merlin. I think I'll look into that a little more.

Posted 07-11-2002 12:12 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo: ....Tess, on the other hand, has taken on a dual role - part Guinevere, part Morgana. Morgana, if you recall, was Arthur's duplicitous half-sister. She seduces Arthur (as Tess did Max) with the primary purpose of getting pregnant and uses this child to betray "the king" as the means of his destruction at the hands of his enemy. ... This could tie in with Congresswoman Whittaker's confusion about "Vilondra," Isabel perhaps being the "Morgana" of their previous lives. I love Liz as Merlin, the scientist and the soothsayer.

Posted 07-11-2002 09:17 PM by The Real Momo     There is overall a lot of "duality" going on in Roswell -- life/death, good/bad, past/future, Royal Four/Dupes, Humans/Aliens, hybrid half-and-halfs, Venus/Mars. Lots, lots, lots! And some, if not all, of the characters, too, seem to be taking on cross-bred roles -- especially Tess, a combo of Guinivere/Morgana, though a pretty good case can now be made for Liz as Grail Knight/touch of Merlin or Guinivere even. In season 2, Isabel certainly was being played as a version of Morgana, the half-sister who betrayed her brother to the enemy. I wish they hadn't backpedaled on that one in season 3 (Interruptus). This was a really strong Isabel story as Isabel could have really learned to cope with her guilt, come to terms with it and move on. Michael's "No you didn't betray us hacked all the drama from that one and weakened the Kivar/Isabel story badly. I think you hit on something with Whitaker though. When she tells Isabel "Your kind doesn't rule anymore" that could also be interpreted as an Arthurian reference. Merlin makes comments about "the old ways" and "the new ones" –– the old ways referring to magic, intuition, etc. and the "new ways" as the "clinical, non-spiritual" path. In Roswell, we actually have the reverse -- a highly technological, uncompassionate races being replaced by humanity. Certainly a different kind of role reversal, but another example of the dualities in Roswell.

Posted 07-14-2002 06:53 PM by shapeshifter     Just continuing my rewatch of all eps in order, and in We Are Family, when Liz is talking to Sean in the Crashdown, her antennae are atop a tiarra that looks like something a princess or queen would wear. I don't recall seeing that before. And I am wondering about Valenti making baseball bats when he is in his 'dark place.' Is this symbolic? Of his not being there for Kyle & now it's too late? Or reminiscent of Max and the bat in season one? Or does WS really make bats?

Posted 07-16-2002 08:42 AM by elenac     Talking about Tess’ choice to kill herself in 4AAAB, my first thought when I saw the ep was that, like many things that happened in it, it was unnecessary. She had her powers to count on and many ways to find a solution to stop the Air Force look for her. Probably the writers had the need to give closure to the Tex and baby storyline and too little time to do so. “Using” Liz as the witness of blowing herself up with the base was necessary to give credit or depth to the story. Every now and then, when watching scenes like the one in the car, when Tess reassures Liz of Max’s love, I wonder naively: “do actors have a soul (when acting)”? Because it must be hard to carry on such a scene

Posted 07-17-2002 06:18 PM by The Real Momo     Well, I for one, think that Tess' death may be premature here. No body, no death. While Liz's presence does lend some credibility to Tess' demise, we have to remember two things about that scene: 1. Liz was too far away to really see Tess being killed. 2. The car was facing AWAY from the fence, so Liz would NOT have been looking at the base, but away from it. So she certainly could not have seen Tess killed. This opens the possibility that Tess may have "staged" her own death using Liz as a bonafide witness. No one would question Liz' s account. It would have been possible that Tess could have blown up the base, left the impression she died, and has disappeared to parts unknown to resurface another day. Certainly the idea of blowing up the base must have come from the news report about 3,000 tons of dynamite being stolen. As far as the outside world was concerned, whoever stole the dynamite blew up the base. Aliens would not be suspected except for the military. The other thing it does is deliberately puts Liz in harm's way. It puts her at the scene of the crime. Had a season 4 come to pass (or maybe still a distant hope), would they have picked this thread up and used it in some way? The military must have been patrolling the perimeters of the base for unauthorized/unidentified vehicles in the area and a registration check would have turned it up Maria's Jetta. It would have been easy to link Liz to the car. And instead of Tess' atonement, this could have easily been turned to Tess' revenge.

Posted 07-17-2002 10:37 PM by APPLE DELICIOUS     Sci-Fi wise this is the thread. Style

Posted 07-17-2002 10:39 PM by APPLE DELICIOUS     I don't know, hearing about Nutter (sp), just brought back Roswell. Style

Posted 07-18-2002 07:52 AM by elenac     Momo, you practically listed my own considerations and more. My linking Tess and Liz’s conversation in the car with the blowing up scene, was meant to underline that the writers were giving to Tess’ choice a good side even if, if there was a S4, they could’ve used it in a bad way. It seemed to me like a sort of closure to Tess and Liz’s conversation in Kyle’s house in TEOTW, Tess here was telling Liz that despite she put them together, Max was always hers. But the whole scene creeped me, it was dripping of melancholy hypocrisy. Probably, Max was the person Tess should’ve asked to be driven to the base, he deserved apologies from her and maybe some sort of agreement on baby Zan. But if she had asked Max to look after him, than Max couldn’t abandon him thus giving no closure to the Tex and baby storyline. But I was glad Tess didn’t ask Liz to look after baby Zan.

Posted 07-18-2002 04:00 PM by The Real Momo     Yes, I thought the ending was very open-ended in 4AAAA so that it could be played both ways in case a season 4 emerged or emerges. The one fact we must always remember about Tess is that her character is duplicitous. Even if she is not pure evil (a la Pierce), nothing Tess says or does can ever be taken at face value. We knew that in season 1, in season 2, and in season 3. Another reason Tess selects Liz over Max is that Max would never have agreed to take Tess to the base. Max reminds us that he would never see anyone go through what he did in The White Room ... even Tess. While Max would have been the obvious choice (given his relationship with Tess), he could not have gone through with it.

Posted 07-18-2002 06:21 PM by shapeshifter     Momo & elenac, ITA that the end of Season 3 left room for the return of Tess. An epiphany I woke up with this am, re TEOTW and the necessity of Liz changing... FM told Liz he needed her to make his younger self fall out of love with her because he needed to be with Tess to save the world. Liz then comes to the realization that the only thing that would make Max fall out of love with her was if she was intimate with another guy. So, what if FL's ultimate plan ("Max, you have to do this") was to make younger Liz fall out of love with younger Max because (as we have speculated previously) after they cemented, Liz ceased to "change," and so didn't have the powers necessary to make the four a "complete unit" so they could save the world. FL knew the only way to make younger Liz fall out of love with younger Max (which was the only way to prevent cementing and allow her to grow/change) was if Max was with Tess. FM knew he would never get together with Tess unless younger Liz made his younger self fall out of love with her, and that she would only do it to save others. The reason FM went back instead of FL was because FL hadn't changed and so wasn't suited to riding in the granolith --okay--also because an old Liz with a young Max would have been less romantically acceptable to the audience

Posted 07-19-2002 10:40 AM by The Real Momo     shapeshifter: While this idea has some merit, I discarded this based on what I know about trauma and how it works with psi power. That and Ava's statement: "If Max healed you, then you're different." Ava KNEW this without knowing about FMax or FLiz. So I'm inclined to stay with my original position -- that the trauma (Liz being shot) followed by Max's healing is what "changed" Liz. How that changed Liz really falls into electromagnetics. According to some, tests have proven that psychics operate on higher brain wave frequency than the average person. So by healing Liz, he "opened" up her "psi" power . Scientifically speaking and simply put, he changed the "frequency" of Liz's brianwaves. A higher frequency (if I remember right from my readings) of about 40 Mhz puts Liz is the "pyschic" range. And that's probably why Liz developed "psi" powers. However, they are also RANDOM. A consistently "higher" brain wave is difficult to maintain and this would account for Liz's on-off abilities. Electromagnetic disturbances, such as Liz goes through in Ch-ch-changes, are sometimes (if briefly) visual and described as greenish aura. If you recall, Max's force shield is green as well as Liz's power bursts. These displays are smaller, but similar to about 20 electromagnetic hot spots throughout the world, including The Bermuda Triangle and just off the shores of Hawaii where many people have claimed to see a greenish glow as the sun sets. What effect EOTW really has may just be a rearranging of history as it occurred -- perhaps Liz's powers develop more quickly that in the original scenario. But I'd like to think a little more about how EOTW plays into the overall scheme of things ... because in some ways, looking back, EOTW made no difference at all.

Posted 07-19-2002 03:40 PM by shapeshifter     Momo, Wow. I actually read all that. Very intriguing. Still, there is room for my theory within yours if the cementing would somehow have disrupted or slowed down Liz's access to this other frequency.

Posted 07-20-2002 01:01 PM by Reggie     I would suggest that the psychological changes associated with Liz loosing her virginity, would have affected her growth and attitude(s), as her Changes became manifest. She would have become ever closer to Max, thus forcing Tess farther into the shadows. Which is what FMax described, IIRC. By keeping Liz apart from Max, Tess has a chance to become part of The Group; and thus turn from "The Dark Side". I kinda don't think FMax (or FLiz!) had the "And Baby Makes Three" thing in mind, though...

Posted 07-20-2002 03:39 PM by shapeshifter     Reggie, I was just thinking of you on another subject. In my rewatch marathon, during VLV, after Max has the vision of his marriage to Liz, he tells her when they are dancing that it was 'like a memory' of 'something that happened.' Liz inaudibly mouths the words, "It did." So, Reggie, at this point, Max has 2 wives from past lives to deal with, not one plus a girlfrien.

Posted 07-20-2002 08:14 PM by The Real Momo     shapeshifter:Actually, you could make it three wives -- if you count FLiz as separate from present day Liz and include the whole series. Ironically, the historical Arthur supposedly married three times -- to women of the same name! And for your info, I just posted close-ups of Liz's Crashdown uniform -- the one Shiri used in Pilot when they did the shooting scene plus details of Liz's pajamas. Can you send me the links for the revalent parts of the Liz mythology series so I can link the site. I'm also providing some of my own comments as soon as I finish writing them.

Posted 07-20-2002 09:44 PM by shapeshifter     Momo, I sent you some links. Stunningly beautiful pix of the pjs! I'd love to "talk" to you about scan resolutions etc. On the Archetypes Page, I have linked to this pic of the pjs: Screen cap courtesy of Momo IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavender/poitier/92/0ddedf10.jpg I'd like to include more (with credits, links, and kudos to you, of course ). Is that okay? Would you prefer if I saved and uploaded them to another server or not? I am sooo glad someone who cares about the mythology had the $$ to purchase/save these props! Please tell us more about the uniform: Is the ketchup/blood stiff or just dye? Does it smell? IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavender/poitier/92/108e12c0.jpg Oh, and in the PM I sleepily typed "E. B. White," the author of Charlotte's Web instead of "T. H. White," the author of (it appears in the library catalog) Once and Future King and The Sword in the Stone. But seriously, which rendition of King Arthur would you suggest for summer reading to Roswell Fans? Maybe I should just get the Disney movie. Hmmm... Charlotte's Web--reminds me of Maria's Season One comment about the female spider biting off the head of the male after they mate--how prophetic of her! Okay, g'nite lurkers.

Posted 07-21-2002 02:40 PM by The Real Momo     shapeshifter:Please feel free to use the photos. Just check Momo's Roswell for the screencaps and include a link to my site which is: http://nav.to/momosroswell. We haven't had a chance to really analyze the "blood". But I can tell you it's probably "stage blood" which can either be bought or mixed. I believe I read that Roswell mixed their own, but I can't remember what parts of what stuff they added. Dried, it makes the cotton material stiff. There is no real smell which is not surprising. After three years any smell would be pretty faint. The green material is a cotton or cotton blend. It appears to have been made in the costume shop since there are no size tags, cleaning info, and other info which appears on some of the later uniforms. This was probably made to spec for Shiri and used as a prototype for future dresses. The collar is a little harder to determine. It is either a leatherette, neoprene or urethane (though probably too thin for the latter). Where the collar is worn and chafed, a thin layer of some sort of white plastic shows which probably served as a backing. The white plastic is pliable and more durable than the silver coating. This is sewn directly to the green cotton/cotton blend material. If you look around the bullet hole, there is a ring of a slightly darker stain. I'm not sure why they did this, unless to give the appearance of depth or fake powder burns. I'm not sure that the distance from where the gun was fired to where Liz was shot would actually leave powder burn marks. I suspect that multiple dresses were made for specific sequences. We know there are at least two. The one that I have is supposed to be the original. We'll be posting the appropriate screen cap which my sister has isolated. The pajamas were made by Bed Head and are 100% cotton. I'll be posting text on both the dress and the PJs as soon as I finish writing it up. EB White's "The Once and Future King" is the best place to start. It's very readable and easy to get. You can probably find it in any bookstores. Borders usually carries it in their Sci-Fi and Fantasy section. It's also sometimes found in classic literature. The book is available in both hard and soft bound. Another book worth reading would include Chrisopher Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur. For those who want to delve a little more deeply, there are a host of fiction/non-fiction books from the Genesis of the Grail Kings series; Launcelot du Lac; The Search for the Holy Grail; Sir Gawain and The Green Knight; Parcival; The Arthurian Torso by Charles Williams, From Ritual to Romance by Jessie Weston, the books of Geoffrey Ashe, and tons more that I can't think of the exact titles of the top of my head. I'll try to put together a more complete list with authors when I have a chance.

Posted 07-21-2002 08:04 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo: ...The collar is a little harder to determine. It is either a leatherette, neoprene or urethane (though probably too thin for the latter). Where the collar is worn and chafed, a thin layer of some sort of white plastic shows which probably served as a backing. The white plastic is pliable and more durable than the silver coating. ... "Where the collar is worn and chafed"? You mean from: IMAGE: 204.60.193.55/sh/sh32.jpg screencap courtesy of The DDD.net

Posted 07-23-2002 10:17 AM by GrhmLz     Hi everyone! -To The Real Momo... You have some interesting ideas. I am definitely open to the idea that if a season 4 returned, Tess could have been brought back from the "dead." However, I can't say that I agree with your analysis of Tess' "changing nature." While motherhood has an impact, not everyone changes for the better as sad as that is. Remember that Tess, if she was Tess at all, killed several men on that base. And I have to ask this question! If motherly instinct made her kill those men to protect her baby, why was her baby positioned right in front of the door opening were everyone could see him? I almost got the feeling the baby was being used as bait for an escape. Let me tell you, if motherly instinct had changed me for the better my baby would not have been sitting right in front of the door for the taking if I was concerned for his safety. Hell, they would have seen me before I let them know I had baby. Remember we are dealing with aliens that come with a background involving war, rebellions, royalty, deceit, and fighting for claims to the throne! Some of them possess the abilitly to shapeshift into what form they want to. How do we know Tess is the one that killed and came back or that she came back alone for that matter? We didn't see Tess do the killing did we? So I have to stick with three possible theories on this one because unless the character of Tess is newly enlightened, I doubt her "making nice" with Liz is just what it seems or due to newfound motherhood. 1.) Tess was acting civil to Liz because she was shocked that Liz of all people voted against turning her in. ( I doubt this one although it is a possibilty so I won't eliminate it) 2.) Tess had this planned. She had staged her death using Liz as her eye witness. What her plans are for the future is unseen. 3.) Tess is not Tess at all. There is an alterior motive involved in getting close to Liz by using Tess' identity. -Why Liz? Ok, so she didn't ask Max to bring her to the base because Max wouldn't have agreed to her sacrificing her life. Who says she would have told him where she wanted to go until she got there by directing him? Remember, she didn't tell Liz either. All she said was "I need a favor. I need you to drive me Somewhere." She never told Liz to drive her to the base. My guess is she gave Liz directions as she was driving. I doubt Liz herself would have went along with it either if she told her the plans to sacrifice herself upfront. If she did, Liz probably would have gone to Max first. I mean seriously. Tess could have easily have gone to both Isabel and Michael and told them her intentions. I am sure they would have happily obligued her and went along with it since they voted to turn her in. Why single out Liz someone she felt she was competing against all along for Max's attention? -Why would Tess go out of her way to reveal to Liz before she "dies" that she knew along that Max loved Liz and was always thinking of her? Tess could have took that information to her grave. Let's take the first theory that Tess is Tess and she had a small change of heart towards Liz because she voted not to turn her in. Is it possible that by admitting she knew all along Max wanted Liz she is in fact admitting to being part of some scheme to keep Max/Liz apart? Why else pursue Max the way she did knowing he wanted Liz? Maybe Tess was being genuine and trying to make up for the past because in the end she realized all that she was was a pawn in a big game. A simple means to an end. So to make amends in a small way she reassured Liz that no matter what happens in the future or who tells her what that Max does love her. This also would open up the question to what exactly is the important position Liz holds in Max's life that "others" would be plotting to keep them apart. If Tess isn't really dead, I definitely believe there was some alterior motive in choosing Liz to "make nice" with. -I enjoy reading and posting with you all as always. I love the different ideas and speculation and I'll try to be back later. Bye for now everyone.

Posted 07-24-2002 02:53 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by GrhmLz: ...-Why would Tess go out of her way to reveal to Liz before she "dies" that she knew along that Max loved Liz and was always thinking of her? Tess could have took that information to her grave. Let's take the first theory that Tess is Tess and she had a small change of heart towards Liz because she voted not to turn her in. Is it possible that by admitting she knew all along Max wanted Liz she is in fact admitting to being part of some scheme to keep Max/Liz apart? ... If you rewatch Season 2, this makes sense with TEOTW. FM's plan was to prevent Tess from going off with the enemies because of Max's love for Liz. But we see here that Congressman Whittaker's pronouncement that, "History always repeats itself" was a foreshadowing, because post-EOTW Tess still betrayed Max & the others because of his love for Liz. Rewatching the 2nd half of S2 after the end of S3 it appears that Tess would have been 'good' if Max & Liz weren't soulmates. The only thing that doesn't quite fit is her attraction to Kyle, and why she didn't decide to scrap the Destiny plot in favor of happily ever after with Kyle? Explanations would include nurture (Nasedo) and nature (she was really the more-alien dupe, Ava). The Nasedo letter in Busted states that he is "her only" protector--which could mean the dupes' protector, and that Kal was the R4's.

Posted 07-24-2002 06:48 PM by The Real Momo     GrhmLz: I think that the writers were looking to play both ways (which is why I presented the different viewpoints), but my feeling has always been that you can't trust anything that Tess says or does. The one fact we learned about Tess is that she never did anything without a reason. While Tess claims that she was "asleep or unconscious" when the door of the ship opened, I can't help but wonder if she wasn't using the baby there. But given Tess' nature, I think it's possible to care for the baby, but still put her interests first. In season one, she tells Liz that she likes her and wouldn't want to endanger that relationship, yet she turns around and still pursues Max AFTER Liz tells her that she is involved with Max and loves him. In season two, she tells Max she loves him, but turns around and betrays him, Isabel, and Michael by setting a trap to deliver the pod squad to Kivar and certain death (which she knows). And in season three, she uses the baby twice to protect herself while claiming to have the baby's safety in mind: First, when the door is opened to the spaceship and secondly, when she tells Max she and the baby are linked, that if he kills her, Max would kill Zan. So above all her emotions, Tess is a survivalist, and, as such, I can't see her intentionally sacrificing herself for anyone, even baby Zan. However, that is not to say she doesn't have feelings for the baby either. Tess is not going to be "Mother of the Year" nor is she "Mommy Dearest" -- she's somewhere in between. From the beginning, Liz has never trusted Tess from day one. That alone should have told the audience "to watch out". Even in season 2, when Tess was making "nice", Liz tells Isabel, "I can't help it. I don't trust her." With it turns out, good reason. The fact that Liz could see through Tess made it more important for her to manipulate Liz indirectly -- through Max and the others. So season 2 was all about power playing -- Liz and Tess. While some may say that Liz & Max getting together represents the end of the world, I think it's the opposite. "History repeating itself" strictly applies to Max and the pod squad in their Antarian roles. We know they wound up dead. Had Tess been victorious in bringing everyone home, then the same fate would have befallen the Royal 4. They would have returned home and died -- even Tess admits on her return that Kivar betrayed her (or did he?). End of story. The introduction of Liz changes all that. Here is the one person who can change the future and oddly enough, it's FMax who KNOWS that. But the one position we haven't taken is "what if FMax was wrong"? Perhaps Liz really has nothing to do with EOTW. Perhaps the only reason FMax thought his relationship with Liz brought about the end of the world was "because he didn't follow his destiny per the momogram." Think a moment. When Liz goes to Madame Vivian, there is NO mention of the EOTW. This is BEFORE Liz meets FMax. Yet in Michael's reading, Madame Vivian immediately picks up that "something's bad about to happen". How could Madame Vivian miss something so "huge" in Liz's reading, especially when she tells Liz that "this boy is important ... a leader". Maybe because the end of the world was not connected to Liz at all -- it was connected to Tess. There is a trail to suppose "death" connects to Tess: 1. Tess marries Max on Antar -- everyone dies. 2. Tess leaves Earth for Antar with Max, Isabel, and Michael. They die at the hands of Kivar when Kivar breaks the Nasedo pact. 3. Tess leaves pod squad in FMax version of history and EOTW happens. So perhaps the reason Madame Vivian does NOT see EOTW when she reads Liz's fortune is because EOTW "doesn't" happen -- which means that Liz is the "prevention" not the "cause" of EOTW. Then again, we may be caught in a continuing loop which ends at 2014 to be constantly replayed in repeats on Sci-Fi!

Posted 07-25-2002 10:08 AM by Vihmakass     It works! Now, my post what i tryied post few days ago. * ...like allways...im coming, im reading and geting hooked ...again and again...great posts, very great! Some thougths, random and silly: King Arthut legend. Does anybody saw "The Mist of Avalon"? This TV movie was nominated in Saturn awards? Compleatly dif. point of view to all story and very intersting btw. Tess and firework. She was doing this kind thing in s2 Wipe Out...big fire and show...and Nicholas who was still alive.... Does Dupes have samekind powers? or Ava's and Tess's powers are dif.? if not... How Ava get to Antar? In Max in the City NICHOLAS: If he takes the deal, there'll be a nice public execution to attend. If he doesn't take the deal, Kivar still wants him dead. LONNIE: I can arrange that. What's in it for me? NICHOLAS: Passage home. But just you. The freak with the mohawk stays here Nicholas has way to home for Lonnie, even if Max doesn't take the deal(didn't give Granolithe, come home with it or use it). If this was way to Lonnie whay not to Ava? Some little intriques with Nic. and Hello home? And btw in Earth, what she has here anymore?...mission? love?...Mission failured and love was killed...ounly vegenanse to them who killed her love and messed all life can become option with her character. She ounly looked soft and weak, in reality she was strong girl, maybe stronger than Tess.... Escaping with baby ...messing enemies plans, helping person who in all universe is something related to her true love? Making Tess comeback hard (if now real tess comes back who from R4 or humans taking her easy?...her comeback looking now like hostile act, like she was lieing(giving baby to Max) first and now... If this was so, it opens many interesting plotlines. Whom side is Ava really? Tess like faked faker? Khivar? Does he knows? Does he is mad and trying find baby? ...or keeping laugh. a.s.o. i know my spec. is not fine with all aspects...but it is ounly one point of view, just from littlebit dif. angle and this is all - just my spec. * ...umf. and again i find myself making long and messi post...i must grow up! Big warm summer Hello! to you all! vk. *** Tess and motherhood. I can ounly see she using baby like shield.She is not only survivalist but big egoist. For her one person whom life is mattering is Tess. Even now when she is mother, baby is tool for her, tool for geting what she wants. Not very rare case... I think one triced and pissed of Tess is good villian for show ! Other good villian was Nic, i even miss him. Khivar still has some potential, even now after this pathetic apearance in Isabel honeymoon scene. And the best villian is: M.,I.,M. who are in the dark about past, future and itself. This big question - WHY? is still not ansvered. *** im sry, Raelynn...

Posted 07-25-2002 10:13 AM by Raelynn     Vihmakass There is a thread on the Q&A board for testing things. Like testing sigs and avatars, ect. So next time you need to test something, please do it on the test thread over there, thanks

Posted 07-27-2002 05:52 PM by Reggie     Quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter: Reggie, I was just thinking of you on another subject. In my rewatch marathon, during VLV, after Max has the vision of his marriage to Liz, he tells her when they are dancing that it was 'like a memory' of 'something that happened.' Liz inaudibly mouths the words, "It did." So, Reggie, at this point, Max has 2 wives from past lives to deal with, not one plus a girlfriend. But that future didn't happen, so that marriage didn't. It might have once, though... which brings us back to the question of where the flash came from. Related note: I'll be near Chicago Monday. If you see a WARD tractor-trailer, wave!

Posted 07-27-2002 07:12 PM by Vihmakass     hi! can i wave to you just from here (bc live in Europe)? ...about this wedding flash. im remembering in past here was discussion about this. Alternative realitiies and how they are reflecting to each other. I think i still have some link about that reality thing. This wasnt just not happening future but point where Liz changed future - she choosed other way, other reality.

Posted 07-27-2002 07:57 PM by shapeshifter     Reggie, if you happen to be at the corner of routes 60 and 43 (30 miles north of the city) between 9am and noon, you will see a tall, white, traditional-looking church. Very upscale, but the preaching is good. But Reggie, I agree with Vihmakass, that just because the pre-EOTW Wedding happened in an alternate timeline doesn't mean that it didn't happen. I think that Max's sense that he was seeing something that was a memory is evidence that in the Roswell world of alternate reality (or, as Courtney said, "subsets of time") that it did happen. I love the images Momo posted of Liz's pajamas. They are full of symbolism. This one reminds me of the giant red star that died when Dupe Zan died. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavender/poitier/92/0df05f50.jpg image courtesy of Momo

Posted 07-28-2002 10:50 AM by Reggie     Quote: Originally posted by Vihmakass: hi! can i wave to you just from here (bc live in Europe)? Sure. But Shapeshifter- does that church have Truck Parking?

Posted 07-28-2002 01:16 PM by shapeshifter     Reg, I didn't mention the parking because I wasn't sure, but I thing there's an overflow parking lot on the SW corner of the intersection (Christ Church is on the NW corner). Maybe on your next trip through. I thought of you when we sang "God of wonders beyond our galaxy..."

Posted 07-28-2002 06:09 PM by *antarian angel*     ok, let's say that it was Ava, not Tess, that returned in 4Aliens...why would she kill herself, or make it look that way? She really didn't have a reason to, and i don't see why she would do it just to make it look like Tess was dead. It's understandable that Ava would tell Liz that Max always loved her becaue we know that Ava is a good person,and we know that she understands about Max and Liz. also, it makes sence that if it was Ava, she would pick Liz to take her to the base because when Ava came to Roswell in MITC, she was closest to Liz. They even seemed like friends at the end. Maybe Tess really is dead, because why else would Ava pretend to be her. Maybe when Ava went to Antar, she saw or heard that Kivar had killed Tess, (it makes sence that he would...he's a bad guy and he didn't get what he wanted...) but since Ava was there, she could have somehow rescued Zan and did the right thing by bringing him back to Earth and to Max. the problem with this theory is how would Ava know about what went on in Roswell with Max and Tess and Kyle and everyone else...she may have gotten this information somewhere, but i'm not sure where.

Posted 07-29-2002 06:27 AM by *antarian angel*     ok, i have an idea about how ava could have known what was going on in roswell. we know that tess and ava are similar, even though they have a slightly different genetic make up. well, since tess is pretty much an expert at going into people's minds and making them see and feel things, it's possible that Ava is able to go into people's minds and see what they're thinking and feeling...this way she would know everything that was going on in roswell without actually being there. also, maybe she didn't go back to NYC when she left roswell, maybe she stayed near by. now the question is why would she want them to believe she was tess? why not tell them she was Ava? why make them think she was dead, or why kill herself? maybe when Ava went to Antar, she met with Tess, and since Tess knew that Kivar rejected Zan, she wanted to get him safely back to earth, and not being able to go herself...for whatever reason, probably kivar...she mindwarped Ava to go instead of her. then when ava had done what tess wanted her to do, she made her kill herself. now, there's still the matter about how Ava would even get to Antar. well, if we remember from the Momogram, she said, "...Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us obviously there is a way for them to come home. now, this could be refering to the grenolith or the ship they came to earth in, but...it could also mean that there is another way home somewhere...the way Nic was talking about to Vil in MITC. there has to be other ships. otherwise, how did the skins get here?? it's also possible that there were other aliens that came to earth after 1947 to bring them home.

Posted 07-31-2002 10:31 AM by Vihmakass     ...why Ava didnt tell she is Ava the Dupe? What you think does Max has any trust in Dupes?...yes he didnt have trus in Tess too...but he has with her a child. ...how Ava may know what happened in Roswell after her leaving?...but Tess was there and then she come to Antar...Ava was always "little-mouse" girl, all in a round her are thining she is weak and silly and useless...is this true? ...ofcourse...this is only one point of view to this weird moment in screen.And how this has ties with Liz? If you thinking back - her kindness and respect to every beeing...even for thous weird Dupes...or even Nasedo...( she was only trouble to him, but...) ...speaking about mttm and Nasedo-Liz insident.Im still having troubles not laugh after their kiss when NMax is telling her how good is be 16 and be Max...hmmm.If he was telling about "beeing" without kiss... ...her way show she cared...about Ava...i think to person with life like Ava has, this must has some...significanse (?) ----------------- Where you all are? i miss you!!

Posted 07-31-2002 12:11 PM by *antarian angel*     yes, that's true that they probably wouldn't trust a dupe, espically since they tried to kill Max...but ava was in roswell during that time and was helping them save him... okay, i think i'm going too far with this whole thing. all this started from wondering why tess would go to liz in 4Aliens, and now it's turned into the whole complicated thing. maybe it was ava, maybe it wasn't, and there are different ways these theories could go, but this whole idea with ava gets to be very complicated, and we assume so many things. now, the simple answer would be that it was tess...and although there are some things in those scenes that are very un-tess like, the simple answer is usually the right one. now, i'm not saying we stop talking about this, but i just don't want us to get too far gone in a theory that is unbelievable and has more to do with tess than with liz. now, if you guys have some thoughts on these theories, i'd love to hear them, but lets not get carried away just because someone was acting a little out of character.

Posted 07-31-2002 07:26 PM by shapeshifter     If there is ever a sequel, it would be interesting if they went to NYC and met up with Ava and maybe Billy, or Rath or Lonnie. But I do not think Tess really died. I think she told Liz about Max loving her so the audience would know that the EOTW plan had partially failed (i.e. Alex died) because Max & Liz's love was indestructable. But it also partially succeeded because Liz developed powers and "changed" so she could take on the role of the 4th alien. So if there's a sequel, they could kill off Michael & have Kyle develop powers. I do think that whoever wrote the last episode didn't read the script for or watch Panacea, & didn't know Max healed Valenti. Or are we still going with the powers only being for Liz, or for those who were really 'brought back from the dead' and that Valenti wasn't that far gone?

Posted 07-31-2002 08:12 PM by The Real Momo     Well, if there is to be a theory with Ava, it probably isn't that complicated. From what we know about Ava, she was pretty much rejected by the dupes except for Zan. What we know about Tess is that she was not deemed important -- by the Skins and pretty much by Max. In fact, an early script of EOTW mentions that Max couldn't stand even to touch Tess. If the plan was to keep Tess part of the group, then, ultimately Liz's plan fails. Tess does leave the group -- to go to Antar. Ava also leaves the Dupe group. Does that mean EOTW still happens? Well, not necessarily. First, we have to believe that Ava has cut herself completely away from the Dupes. Ultimately, this diminishes the power of the Dup squad. But let's take another look at something. Tess and Ava's paths have been pretty similar. Let's take a big leap here. Tess gets pregnant by Max and has a child which is rejected for being human. Was that enough of a reason to reject baby Zan? Maybe not. But what if Ava got pregnant by Zan? In the meantime, Lonnie & Rath go looking for Ava, find her, drag her back to NY. Ava has the baby and it turns out to be alien. Nicholas now has another potential heir to the throne. We know Nicholas had a way back -- contrary to what we have been told, there is another way besides the granilith to go home. Ava is taken back to Antar with dupe baby Zan who is accepted by Kivar. There is no longer any reason to for Kivar to honor the Nasedo pact. He has a biological heir. Max & Tess' baby is rejected and Tess flees to save her life and baby Zan's. That's less complicated and could explain why Nicholas and the Dupes are never heard from again. The Tess/Ava switch doesn't take place on earth; ironically it takes place on Antar with Ava replacing Tess (no royal seals to deal with). There is, of course, still "the leaking pod" theory which leads to an early Tess/Ava switch, but there is also another possibility though even less likely: that Tess enlists Ava's help with the Destiny Book translation. Of course, I throw out a Tess/Ava conspiracy based on Liz's reaction to Ava. Had there been something "untoward" in Ava's character, Liz would have "felt" it. So I'm inclined to think that Ava just goes off on her own to an unknown fate. Now, as far as the Las Vegas marriage of Max and Liz being "a memory" in Max's mind ... what about this. What if collective memory crosses parallel worlds? What if "deja vu" experiences are linked to parellel worlds in different time subsets? Each of the 1000s of worlds timed, say, a couple of years apart, but linked through a collective memory. But in this case, collective memory is not tied by DNA, but by electromagnetic waves? Say each wave represents a different parellel world and that they run parellel to each other. Then perhaps as the waves travel through space and time, from time to time, they link positive to negative. Time, space, and worlds become one -- even momentarily so that memories become shared. Perhaps this could explain why Max thinks of the Vegas wedding as a memory of it "actually happening." shapeshifter: I was thinking that "red giant" of Liz's pjs might represent Antar with its three moons circling.

Posted 07-31-2002 08:16 PM by Zero     Hi All! Just thought I'd drop by to see how you all are!! With my new job, I'm rarely able to get on-line for fun! But I like the job!! Nemo - So sorry I missed the get-together! I've been doing the Track thing every weekend up to a week ago! But I'm considering going to the Smallville Party that is going to be at a Hotel by SeaTac in September since I'm getting into that show - I especially like Chloe! But, I don't know anyone who watches, so ... To be adventurous or not? Here is the link if anyone is interested - it is FanForum sponsored - www.makoevents.com/FanEventsDetail.html#smallville BTW - Like the picture!! Shapeshifter, Momo, et al - You all are amazing!! Great discussion! With respect to Tess - I think it was her, not Ava, and that the entire scene was written to leave the door open IF there had been a season 4 for Tess to come back. Being a long time X-files fan, nobody is ever really dead! I think of Tess as a very complex character - not pure evil - who was raised by a fairly evil shapeshifter, Harding, and had moments of human emotion and caring. I tend to think her "sharing" with Liz that Max was always in love with Liz was one of those moments of true human emotion, but only time would tell if we had gotten another season whether she would end up coming back! Well - keep up the wonderful analysis and thoughts! Really enjoyable to read when I get a chance! Hope you are all having a great Summer!!! Zero

Posted 08-01-2002 04:26 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo: ...Let's take a big leap here. ...what if Ava got pregnant by Zan? ... Hmmm...so maybe the more-alien hybrids would have an alien baby, and the more-human ones would have a human baby. Or so the genetic engineers thought. Maybe Nasedo switched Ava & Tess thinking that would disrupt the engineers plan and thwart Kvar in the end. Maybe in the EOTW scenario, Dupe Zan & Ava had the alien heir, kind of like what you said above (last page), Momo. Or, maybe the only 'rightful heir' could be produced by a Max/Liz combo, and Nasedo knew that. The Tess/Max fake heir was to thwart Kvar temporarily, Nasedo knowing that nothing would keep Max & Liz apart forever. Maybe FMax & FLiz had learned of this plan. This would also fit with Nasedo's wanting to save Liz in M2M. Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo:...I throw out a Tess/Ava conspiracy based on Liz's reaction to Ava. Had there been something "untoward" in Ava's character, Liz would have "felt" it.... ITA Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo:...as far as the Las Vegas marriage of Max and Liz being "a memory" in Max's mind ... what about this. What if collective memory crosses parallel worlds? ...Time, space, and worlds become one -- even momentarily so that memories become shared. Perhaps this could explain why Max thinks of the Vegas wedding as a memory of it "actually happening."... So, Momo, do you agree that his memory means it happened? Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo:shapeshifter: I was thinking that "red giant" of Liz's pjs might represent Antar with its three moons circling. Cool! Did you think that when you first saw them after you purchased them? BTW, those pants are so obvious in Panacea and CDB. Quote: Originally posted by Zero: ...With respect to Tess - I think it was her, not Ava, and that the entire scene was written to leave the door open IF there had been a season 4 for Tess to come back. Being a long time X-files fan, nobody is ever really dead! I think of Tess as a very complex character - not pure evil - who was raised by a fairly evil shapeshifter, Harding, and had moments of human emotion and caring. ... Hi Zero! Well said!

Posted 08-01-2002 07:33 PM by *antarian angel*     Quote: Hmmm...so maybe the more-alien hybrids would have an alien baby, and the more-human ones would have a human baby. Or so the genetic engineers thought. Maybe Nasedo switched Ava & Tess thinking that would disrupt the engineers plan and thwart Kvar in the end. Maybe in the EOTW scenario, Dupe Zan & Ava had the alien heir okay, i'm a little confused here. if the 'people' on Antar knew that the dupes would most likely have the alien baby, why were the dupes left alone in the sewers without grenolith? also, how does the dupe alien baby fit in with the plan of EOTW? do you mean dupe alien baby zan gets brought to antar which sets in motion the plan for antar to attack earth? i suppose it's possible that max and liz would figure this out...but what about the nasado's plan for tess to get pregnant with max's child and return to antar. was kivar using that as a back up plan? Quote: Or, maybe the only 'rightful heir' could be produced by a Max/Liz combo, and Nasedo knew that. The Tess/Max fake heir was to thwart Kvar temporarily, Nasedo knowing that nothing would keep Max & Liz apart forever. Maybe FMax & FLiz had learned of this plan. This would also fit with Nasedo's wanting to save Liz in M2M. so does that mean that nasado wants max and liz to be together? why would he want to mess up kivar's plans? why push max to be with tess? and how could max and liz's child be the rightful heir to he antarian throne? would it be to over throw kivar? maybe that's why nasado would want that...and maybe that's why he saved liz in M2M...are you saying that nasado wanted to buy himself some time with kivar so he made it look like he was really trying to get max and tess together, when he really wanted max and liz together? i'm just trying to understand all this...am i getting any of it right?

Posted 08-01-2002 08:03 PM by The Real Momo     Originally posted by shapeshifter: Quote: So, Momo, do you agree that his memory means it happened? I think there is sufficient evidence in junk and real science to support this. So yes, I have to say that Max truly believes the event happened. There is a story about two schoolteachers, Mrs. Morrison's Ghosts which deals with this subject. Two schoolteachers are walking through Versailles (sp?) when they come upon some men dressed in 18th century clothing, then later Marie Antoinette. However, their experience is interactive. It appears the ghosts see them as well. While treated as a ghost story, it's really about two points in time merging into one or perhaps, parallel worlds in shifted timesets, again, through electromagnetic disturbances, merging into one world. In Max's case, this is triggered by the newlyweds entering the hotel. The newlyweds merge into a parallel world where Max and Liz get married and enter the hotel at the same point in space, but in different time subsets.

Posted 08-01-2002 08:13 PM by The Real Momo     Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by The Real Momo:shapeshifter: I was thinking that "red giant" of Liz's pjs might represent Antar with its three moons circling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by shapeshifter. Quote: Cool! Did you think that when you first saw them after you purchased them? BTW, those pants are so obvious in Panacea and CDB Yeah, as soon as I saw the pjs up close, I thought about the picture showing Antar with its red sea and the three moons in the horizon. However, I don't believe that symbol was intentional use by the writing/wardrobe staff. It's coincidental. The pjs made their first appearance in "The Morning After", so they were purchased by wardrobe long before anyone conceived of Antar. The pjs have more to do with Max and Liz and their relationship.

Posted 08-01-2002 09:19 PM by The Real Momo     Alien hybrids and babies make for "weird" science. Which brings me to Heatwave for a moment. In a scene which was trimmed, Maria and Liz talk about Michael & Maria's relationship with Michael. Liz has a speech illustrating to Maria the improbability of unlike species "getting it on" together -- in this case, Michael and Maria. And since then, look how far they've come! Both sets of pod squads each have human DNA and alien DNA. So the odds of each pod squad having a human baby is the same. Biologically, neither set is more human or alien -- they are 50% each. Therefore, two hybrids mating have a 25% chance of producing a completely human baby -- which is what happened with Tess and Max. There is actually a greater chance that two hybrids would create offspring that had "some" alien DNA. Whether the Royal4 are more emotionally human than the Dupes really has nothing to do with it. But since Ava/Tess parallels are so close in that they were both outsiders, then the parallels in their lives might take similar courses. We know that Ava/Zan were sexually involved, so ... it would be natural to assume Ava might also become pregnant. I only introduced having an alien baby because the odds really favor an human/alien mix. We know that Max carries the seal because of "kingship". It's a ID stamp. It only traveled to Michael when Max "died". It did not go to his son. Tess also did not have a seal, so there is no means to identify Max or Zan's offspring except by DNA. Which means a baby swap with Ava as Tess might be doable and serve Kivar's needs to preserve his power as king. Now, Nasedo has never favored a Max/Liz relationship. As far as saving Liz in Max to the Max, that was never the plan. Liz was bait, even in the House of Mirrors. Nasedo figured that everyone would know that Max was involved with Liz, so ... naturally if Liz was there, then it had to be Max with her. He thought Pierce would follow him. What he hadn't planned on was that Pierce [b]knew[/b ]there were two Maxes. If you recall, when Liz asks Nasedo if he was going to kill her, he says he would keep her alive only because she was useful (as his hostage).] So Nasedo always favored the Max/Tess match. There has never been any question in my mind about Nasedo's intentions. Liz represents the "butterfly", the one person throws the well-ordered plan of Nasedo into chaos. She is the one who can change history and does. And at the same time, she is the moth emerging into a "butterfly" as a victim of chaos. One can almost imagine a grown Liz, a moth stuck in the cocoon of some research lab learning about life but never living it . Liz, the butterfly, learns to live life and blossoms in the face of chaos. Now who the rightful heir to the throne of Antar would be an interesting subject to pursue -- would it be Max/Tess or Max/Liz? Tess represents the Antarian queen reborn. However, we must remember that both Max and Tess died. This really is a cultural problem. Do the Antarians believe in one mate forever -- in life, in death, in the afterlife and beyond? We don't know. Tess certainly feels that she is Max's wife. She makes a point of saying so in Departure. "I'm your wife, Max! Why couldn't you ever feel that way about me." The momogram also refers to Tess as Max's "young bride", again denoting a commitment which extends beyond death. Which by Antarian law might mean Zan Jr. is rightful heir if kingship passed from father to son (which it appears to be). However, by Earthen law, marriage is "until death do us part." The act of dying releases Max from all promises, entanglements, and commitments to a spouse. Both he and Yess would be free to pursue whomever they choose and marry whom they choose. Max chooses Liz. On Earth, Liz would be recognized as the legitimate spouse. As such, Liz and Max's child would be recognized as rightful heir and Max & Tess' son would be regarded as illegitimate with no right to the throne as long as there is a legal heir. Should Max and Liz remain childless, then Zan Jr. would be rightful king by succession. However, who really thinks that Liz and Max would remain childless? This is Sci-fi!

Posted 08-02-2002 07:58 AM by *antarian angel*     Quote: However, by Earthen law, marriage is "until death do us part." The act of dying releases Max from all promises, entanglements, and commitments to a spouse. Both he and Tess would be free to pursue whomever they choose and marry whom they choose. Max chooses Liz. On Earth, Liz would be recognized as the legitimate spouse. As such, Liz and Max's child would be recognized as rightful heir and Max & Tess' son would be regarded as illegitimate with no right to the throne as long as there is a legal heir very good point, Momo! but if we go with this theory, it just has liz as a random human that max falls in love with. it's good in that it frees max from tess, but how does this make his choice of liz special? would it just be because she is the one he chooses? or is there a reason that he chooses liz? maybe on antar, tess had something to do with kivar taking power, and max somehow figured this out before he died. maybe that thought stayed with him when he came to earh, and he 'chose' to be with liz because subconsiously, he knew that there was something about liz that would save him in this life, which she does. we know that tess had planned to bring them to antar, knowing that kivar would kill them, so it really isn't that hard to believe that on antar, tess would do something to harm them as well. she claimed to be his wife in both lives, so just because she was his bride on antar doesn't really change much. tess has never been trustworthy. (i always seem to answer my own questions, don't i)

Posted 08-02-2002 06:01 PM by shapeshifter     Originally posted by *antarian angel*: ...if the 'people' on Antar knew that the dupes would most likely have the alien baby, why were the dupes left alone in the sewers without grenolith? ... Hmmm…good question. Let’s see, if, according to my “theory” (or alternate Roswell universe/prequel) Nasedo wanted to double cross Kvar, he would hide the Dupes to prevent an alien heir from getting to Antar. Originally posted by *antarian angel*: ... also, how does the dupe alien baby fit in with the plan of EOTW? do you mean dupe alien baby zan gets brought to antar which sets in motion the plan for antar to attack earth? i suppose it's possible that max and liz would figure this out...but what about nasado's plan for tess to get pregnant with max's child and return to antar. was kivar using that as a back up plan? ... ummmm, yes and maybe. Or maybe Nasedo was hoping Kvar wouldn't mind a human heir, as long as it was Max's. Originally posted by *antarian angel*: ... so does that mean that nasado wants max and liz to be together? why would he want to mess up kivar's plans? why push max to be with tess? and how could max and liz's child be the rightful heir to he antarian throne? would it be to over throw kivar? maybe that's why nasado would want that...and maybe that's why he saved liz in M2M...are you saying that nasado wanted to buy himself some time with kivar so he made it look like he was really trying to get max and tess together, when he really wanted max and liz together?... Yes, you have it right. What I neglected to state was that Nasedo would have been engineered to make sure that the “rightful” heir would take the throne. This could be Liz & Max’s son simply because Max chose her. Or maybe some other Mythological reason, such as Zero’s theory (see intro to thread & links) or WR's fanfic. Originally posted by The Real Momo: ... Yeah, as soon as I saw the pjs up close, I thought about the picture showing Antar with its red sea and the three moons in the horizon. However, I don't believe that symbol was intentional use by the writing/wardrobe staff. It's coincidental. The pjs made their first appearance in "The Morning After", so they were purchased by wardrobe long before anyone conceived of Antar. ... I love the ‘coincidences’ of Roswell. They give ‘importance to the whole mythology.’ Originally posted by The Real Momo: ... The pjs have more to do with Max and Liz and their relationship.... How so? Tell us more. This image seems to scream of alien/human bonding in romance. But what does the banner say? IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavender/poitier/92/0e265e10.jpg Image courtesy of The Real Momo Originally posted by The Real Momo: ...We know that Max carries the seal because of "kingship". It's a ID stamp. It only traveled to Michael when Max "died". It did not go to his son. ... This may be slightly OT, but in rewatching WDAMYK it occurred to me that maybe this was the goal of Rath in killing Zan & Max. Originally posted by The Real Momo: ... Nasedo has never favored a Max/Liz relationship. As far as saving Liz in Max to the Max, that was never the plan. Liz was bait, even in the House of Mirrors. Nasedo figured that everyone would know that Max was involved with Liz, so ... naturally if Liz was there, then it had to be Max with her. He thought Pierce would follow him. What he hadn't planned on was that Pierce [b]knew[/b ]there were two Maxes.... Yes, that is the obvious storyline, but I am still thinking that maybe after Nasedo kissed Liz in M2M, he recognized that she was Max’s chosen, and as a protector, Nasedo was engineered to honor that. And since Tess was, as you said, not highly valued in any of her incarnations (except maybe by mommy dearest? Or was the mommogram just part of a ruse?), Nasedo might have viewed Tess as expendable. Especially since he told her not to get hung up on her human form, since that’s not who she was—-maybe he wouldn’t mind using her body as a tool for the agenda. This also fits with Liz’s ultimate willingness to give Tess a chance in Crash, as Liz has the ability to judge character correctly, and would have felt compassion for the ill-fated Tess. But more importantly, she knew when to trust her and when not to trust her. Originally posted by *antarian angel*: ...how does this make his choice of liz special? would it just be because she is the one he chooses? or is there a reason that he chooses liz? maybe on antar, tess had something to do with kivar taking power, and max somehow figured this out before he died. maybe that thought stayed with him when he came to earh, and he 'chose' to be with liz because subconsiously, he knew that there was something about liz that would save him in this life, which she does. ... *antarian angel*, usually I rebel against any reasons for Max choosing Liz other than pure serendipity and attraction, but I think you may be right. And with Interruptus we learn the Vilandra was not really a traitor; combined with CW's confusion of Tess and Isabel in Surprise, maybe Tess was the traitor, and Nasedo and Alien mom knew it, and figured it into their plan to save the world.

Posted 08-02-2002 07:34 PM by The Real Momo     While Max's choice of Liz appears to be random, it's not random at all. We know that Max, as soon as he saw Liz in the third grade, he connected with her. What has never been confirmed on-screen is did Liz feel the same about Max. Outside of a little hint in Pilot that Liz was attracted to Max, but couldn't believe he could be attracted to her, is the only piece of dialogue on-screen. We have the flashes when they were children, but we've never been able to prove that it was more than Liz being "nice" to someone new. However, after reading an early script of Heatwave, Liz does confirms that she has always felt a connection to Max. So ... a random shooting in the Crashdown? Maybe not random at all, but a deliberate hit, an assassination attempt. Which brings us back to that original piece of dialogue dubbed over Larry, Jennifer and Liz's conversation: We have to get rid of her.

Posted 08-02-2002 07:51 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo: ...Which brings us back to that original piece of dialogue dubbed over Larry, Jennifer and Liz's conversation: We have to get rid of her.[/QB] Care to hear it?

Posted 08-03-2002 08:53 AM by Nemo     The old-timers' thread mentioned that the girl who played Liz-as-a-child (in the Pilot and SH) was among the guests at their party Friday. There's a good picture here OTO349p2 and some more here OTO349p4.

Posted 08-03-2002 11:00 AM by *antarian angel*     Quote: posted by shapeshifter Nasedo wanted to double cross Kvar, he would hide the Dupes to prevent an alien heir from getting to Antar. good point. if nasado knew that they had a better chance of making an 'alien' baby, it makes sence that they would be hidden away and left alone. i do have a question about the dupes though. in MtD and MitC, rath and lonny seem to know quite a bit about antar and how alien things work. how would they know this? they said their protecter told them some things, so did nasado like, fill them in on what they are then leave? but why even tell them anything if they could mess up his plans? Quote: posted by shapeshifter Nasedo would have been engineered to make sure that the rightful heir would take the throne. it's too bad that nasado couldn't stick around long enough so we could find out his real plans. it makes sence that that would be true about nasado because cal was engineered to do whatever max told him, so nasado may be engineered to try and return the rightful heir to antar. so the skins were probably working with kivar then, to try and kill the pod squad... Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo: ...We know that Max carries the seal because of "kingship". It's a ID stamp. It only traveled to Michael when Max "died". It did not go to his son. ... Quote: posted by shapeshifter in rewatching WDAMYK it occurred to me that maybe this was the goal of Rath in killing Zan & Max. maybe that's true, but when zan died, the king seal didn't go to rath... Quote: posted by antarian angel maybe on antar, tess had something to do with kivar taking power, and max somehow figured this out before he died. maybe that thought stayed with him when he came to earh, and he 'chose' to be with liz because subconsiously, he knew that there was something about liz that would save him in this life, which she does. ... Quote: posted by shapeshifter usually I rebel against any reasons for Max choosing Liz other than pure serendipity and attraction, but I think you may be right. And with Interruptus we learn the Vilandra was not really a traitor; combined with CW's confusion of Tess and Isabel in Surprise, maybe Tess was the traitor yes, that's right! we did learn that isabel wasn't a traitor. she was just trying to make peace! and if you think about it, nicholas knew isabel was vilandra, and he knew michael was rath,and courtney knew michael was rath... so why wouldn't CW be able to tell vilandra and ava apart in Surprise? it seems to me that maybe CW was right with her first choice. i'll have to watch the eppy again to make sure i'm not missing anything...but if other aliens could tell them apart...why couldn't CW? Quote: posted by momo Max, as soon as he saw Liz in the third grade, he connected with her. this could be connected with what i said earlier about how max knew subconsiously that liz would save him. liz is human, so it's understandable that she wouldn't know right away that she was destined to save max, which is probably why she didn't feel a connection with him right away.

Posted 08-03-2002 12:21 PM by The Real Momo     antarian angel: We now know that Liz "felt" a connection before Max saved her in the Crashdown. It comes from a "cut" scene in Heatwave, where Liz admits to Maria she felt a connection "way before" the incident at the Crashdown. So Liz, like Max, had an immediate connection.

Posted 08-03-2002 05:01 PM by shapeshifter     Real Momo, I always wonder about cut scenes--are they cut because of time constraints or because of an executive decision to tweak the plot? I think most of the time it's not to negate the effects of the cut scene entirely, but just to leave open the possibility that there might be another reason for something, or another direction. Quote: Originally posted by *antarian angel* ...good point. if nasado knew that [the Dupes] had a better chance of making an 'alien' baby, it makes sense that they would be hidden away and left alone. i do have a question about the dupes though. in MtD and MitC, rath and lonny seem to know quite a bit about antar and how alien things work. how would they know this? they said their protecter told them some things, so did nasado like, fill them in on what they are then leave? but why even tell them anything if they could mess up his plans?... Hmmmm...I think I smell the possibility of a triple-cross by Nasedo. And remember the Dupes told Max not to trust Nicholas. The possible intrigues are mind boggling. Quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter ...in rewatching WDAMYK it occurred to me that maybe this was the goal of Rath in killing Zan & Max. ... Quote: Originally posted by *antarian angel* ...maybe that's true, but when zan died, the king seal didn't go to rath... Well, how about this: Quote: Posted by shapeshifter on 04-26-2002 04:07 PM: How about this for order of operations: Max had the RS (Royal Seal) to begin with because he was the First String King. If Max had died and Zan was still alive, the Royal Seal would have gone to Zan. Then, if Zan died, the Royal Seal would go next to Michael, and then, if Michael died, to Rath. So then, thinking about TEOTW: If Tess had left, and the Roswell 3 had died, and Zan was already dead, Rath would have taken over the world. So, lets see...how would a Nasedo triple-cross and Liz's Importance figure into this scenario? And who was Serina? I'm thinking of Rath's wanting to "do" Liz too--this from the guy who said, "Alien sex, accept no substitutes!" If she was the real 'queen' by virtue of Max's choice or something else, and Rath wanted to be the King, maybe he had to have the real queen to be accepted. Maybe the seal would have gone to Liz if Max had died after they cemented. I have no way to back this up--just escaping from some of life's grim realities with fictional plot twists.

Posted 08-03-2002 10:41 PM by *antarian angel*     Quote: posted by shapeshifter I'm thinking of Rath's wanting to "do" Liz too--this from the guy who said, "Alien sex, accept no substitutes!" If she was the real 'queen' by virtue of Max's choice or something else, and Rath wanted to be the King, maybe he had to have the real queen to be accepted. very good point. this could mean something more, but it could also just mean that rath is a horndog...but you do bring up a good point. plus, it seems that if he was just looking for sex, lonny/vilandra would give it to him. but back to liz, how would rath know that liz is the true queen? i mean, yeah, max had a pic of her in his room, but...that doesn't have to mean she's the queen. if your idea were true, that would mean that rath somehow knew that liz was special...but how? Quote: posted by shapeshifter Max had the RS (Royal Seal) to begin with because he was the First String King. If Max had died and Zan was still alive, the Royal Seal would have gone to Zan. Then, if Zan died, the Royal Seal would go next to Michael, and then, if Michael died, to Rath. i like this idea. it makes sence that the roswell pod squad would be the first string and the NYC pod squad would be second...just look at how and where they grew up. but that still leaves open the question to why the dupes seem to know more about antar than the roswell pod squad. Quote: posted by shapeshifter Hmmmm...I think I smell the possibility of a triple-cross by Nasedo. And remember the Dupes told Max not to trust Nicholas. The possible intrigues are mind boggling. i agree that nasado was a very complex, confusing, and interesting character. we never knew what was really going on. so many things that happened on roswell are so strage because they seem to overlap and almost contradict themselves. the dupes telling max about nicholas was strange...there are so many things to figure out on roswell, the possibilities seem endless! there really are so many things to look at.

Posted 08-04-2002 07:22 PM by The Real Momo     shapeshifter: There are all sorts of reasons for cut scenes. Some are economic; some are creative. We really won't know the answer until the writing/producing staff elects to tell us why particular scenes are cut. But here are some basic reasons. 1. Time constraints. Each script needs to fall between roughly say 43-46 minutes in length, about 55 pages of printed script. Most scripts come in slightly longer, about 60 pages. The length of each episode is dictated by the amount of advertising booked. Cuts are made accordingly to fit the length of an episode around the advertising. 2. A scene is too expensive to shoot and still keep the budget in line. 3. A critical expensive shot is retained and a scene which contributes little to the forward motion of the script is lopped. These bits sometimes appear in other episodes. 4. Dialogue and actions are cut if they are deemed "out of character" . 5. Dialogue is shorten or rewritten to strengthen the meaning of a scene, heighten the drama, etc. 6. Dialogue or backdrops are extraneous. 7. Film editing for bad blocking or non-verbal action scenes that open and/or end a scene. I'm sure I've missed others, but you get the drift. Only the producers, actors, and directors can offer the specifics. Originally posted by shapeshifter: Quote: Maybe the seal would have gone to Liz if Max had died after they cemented. I have no way to back this up--just escaping from some of life's grim realities with fictional plot twists. I think this is highly unlikely. Mainly, because the succession seems to be male generated (sexist definitely, but that's the evidence): Max's father, Max, then Michael (second in command). If gender didn't enter into it, the succession would have been Max's father, Isabel (the eldest child), then Max. That didn't happen. And when Max died, Isabel was passed over completely. And so was Tess. However, if you propose that Max and Liz have a male heir, then yes, their son certainly would be in line to the throne. And that's probably the only way that Liz would have figured into the succesion ... unless Liz was a queen in her own right (if you support the claim that Liz is a long lost alien love of Max's). I'm going to go out on a limb because of Liz pjs and say that someone in Liz's family is Max's donor. Originally posted by antarian angel Quote: but that still leaves open the question to why the dupes seem to know more about antar than the roswell pod squad I think the answer here is an easy one. At some point, we know that the Skins found the Dupe pods (according to Whitaker's diary on silverhandprint.com). We also know that Whitaker planted the story about Isabel being a "traitor" to her brother, her family and her race. Lonnie virtually spit out the same story as Whitaker ... yet from Michael, we learn, no, Isabel wasn't a traitor, just terribly naive. So how could "Lonnie" remember something that wasn't true (if we believe Michael). Well, the Dupes certainly had contact with at least Nicholas so they were probably given the same propaganda but at an earlier age until they believed what the Skins told them. Originally posted by shapeshifter Quote: I'm thinking of Rath's wanting to "do" Liz too--this from the guy who said, "Alien sex, accept no substitutes!" If she was the real 'queen' by virtue of Max's choice or something else, and Rath wanted to be the King, maybe he had to have the real queen to be accepted. This is a case a Max envy. If you recall from season 1 in Missing, when Michael returns the diary to Liz, he says, "Thank you for giving one more reason to envy Max." So Michael was envious of Max and certainly Rath was envious of Zan ... and Max. Rath wanted the power and so did Michael (after the seal is transferred, it brings out the worst in his character -- almost a mirror image of Rath). It is only natural that if Max wanted Liz, then Rath would also want Liz. Anything that Max valued, Rath had to have. Consequently Liz became part of Rath's "to do" list. I'm not sure it has anything to do with Liz becoming "queen". Ironically, though Max was married to Tess on Antar, Rath showed no interest in either Tess or Dupe Ava. This could be because Ava stated to Liz "I always felt that he (Zan) was looking for someone else". So even though Antarian Zan was married to Ava and Dupe Zan was shagging Ava, Ava was "not valued" by Zan. Therefore, Rath was not interested in "doing" Ava/Tess. If Rath was interested in power and the kingship, then Rath almost certainly would have gone after Tess/Ava but he didn't. Everything we have learned from other people about Zan/Ava's relationship on Antar suggest that Ava was not deemed important -- not by Whitaker, Lonnie, Rath, and even Kivar. We have only Tess' word that Zan loved Ava and we know Tess lies. Even Nasedo never claims that Max loves Tess. Nasedo was only interested in the production of an heir to complete the Nasedo Pact. So Ava/Tess's role -- from the alien standpoint -- was to maintain the procreation of the species, nothing more (another really sexist attitude, but there it is). So how does Liz fit into all this -- outside of perhaps the blood connection to Max? Perhaps by prophecy and folklore. We know that Ava believed Zan was looking for someone. We know that Max found someone. We know that perhaps someone was deliberately looking to kill Liz. We know that Liz was regarded as a threat by Nasedo and Tess. So it appears that someone out there knew "the history to be". If they were unable to time travel (as indicated in EOTW), then there is an Antarian version of Madam Vivian who perhaps foretold the "coming of Liz." If this is the case, then it's possible that the reason Max and the pod squad were sent to Earth was because of the prophecy. Max was deliberately placed on Earth to find Liz.

Posted 08-04-2002 08:39 PM by shapeshifter     *antarian angel*, The ways Rath could know that Liz was at least important could include an Antarian Madame Vivian (as T. R. Momo suggests), or maybe if Nasedo saw something when he kissed her as Maxcedo, it somehow got passed on in the shapeshifters' locker room or whatever. Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo: There are all sorts of reasons for cut scenes... ...Dialogue and actions are cut if they are deemed "out of character" ... This is the possibility that always troubles me with the inclusion of Roswellian cut scenes in discussions, especially if the scene includes the mecurial Tess and Nasedo. Don't get me wrong, I love reading cut scenes--I just like to keep any speculations including them as just that: speculations. Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo:...it's possible that the reason Max and the pod squad were sent to Earth was because of the prophecy. Max was deliberately placed on Earth to find Liz... It certainly fits with Ava's words about her Zan 'always waitin' for someone' else. Maybe he was engineered to notice the one who would be his perfect other half when he found her. This could be part of a bigger plan outside of Destiny to stop history from repeating itself. The momogram tells them that they will know their enemies by the 'evil within.' Well, the only one who ever had the ability to do this was (drum roll, please) LIZ. Quote: Originally posted by The Real Momo:Anything that Max valued, Rath had to have. Consequently Liz became part of Rath's "to do" list... ...I'm going to go out on a limb because of Liz pjs and say that someone in Liz's family is Max's donor.... Okay, you're going to have to drop the other shoe here. Tell us, and show us, please!

Posted 08-05-2002 08:35 AM by *antarian angel*     Quote: posted by T.R. Momo Ironically, though Max was married to Tess on Antar, Rath showed no interest in either Tess or Dupe Ava. This could be because Ava stated to Liz "I always felt that he (Zan) was looking for someone else". So even though Antarian Zan was married to Ava and Dupe Zan was shagging Ava, Ava was "not valued" by Zan. Therefore, Rath was not interested in "doing" Ava/Tess. If Rath was interested in power and the kingship, then Rath almost certainly would have gone after Tess/Ava but he didn't. Everything we have learned from other people about Zan/Ava's relationship on Antar suggest that Ava was not deemed important -- not by Whitaker, Lonnie, Rath, and even Kivar. We have only Tess' word that Zan loved Ava and we know Tess lies. you bring up a good point. even after zan died, rath didn't go after ava, and he didn't go after tess when he got to roswell, but he did go right for liz. he didn't seem to have any interest at all in ava/tess...he even looked down on them. it's true that tess was the only one who seemed so content on having everyone believe she was the all special queen. i think the only other person who ever said anything about it was the momo-gram, and we all know that tess could have worked that whole thing up. has anyone ever wondered if tess ever mindwarped nasado? if tess is trying to take liz's place at max's side, don't you think she would do anything to get there? maybe tess always knew that liz belonged with max. maybe like dupe ava said, maybe antarian ava knew that max was waiting for someone else, and because she didn't want to loose him, when she went to earth, she kept trying to fight off liz, but in the end, (4Aliens) she knew she had been defeated, and finally gave max up to liz. maybe ava betrayed zan on antar because she couldn't take it anymore that he didn't seem to really love her. sometimes jealous wives can get like that...

Posted 08-05-2002 11:10 AM by Alexis     Hey, everyone! I didn’t realize this thread topic was still open!!!! I just wanted to say hi. Not much else to add.

Posted 08-05-2002 03:42 PM by *antarian angel*     okay time for story time, just to put some things we've said in order... ava and zan were married on antar. vilandra is in love with kivar. ava and zan do not have a happy marriage because zan is 'waiting for someone else.' this does not make ava happy. ava betrays zan for kivar (maybe they had something goin' on there...) vilandra gives kivar access to the palace, and kivar takes over and zan, ava, rath, and vilandra are killed. their essence is mixed with human dna, including that from grandpa dupree, and they are sent to earth in two sets. tess wants to be with max again, but this time, max has found his 'someone that he has been waiting for' in liz. this makes tess very unhappy, so she tries to get max back. back on antar, kivar doesn't want the pod squad to return, so he sends the skins down to earth to kill them. the skins (CW) tell them that vilandra betraied them on antar (a lie) so that they would turn against each other. we later learn, thanks to michael, that this is a lie, and that it wasn't vilandra that betraied them. and if we look at that...since it wasn't vilandra, and it wasn't zan of course, and it wasn't rath because in one of the episodes, sorry, i don't remember which one, someone tells michael that because of his loyality to max (i think courtney said this) kivar was able to take over. anyway, that only leaves ava! okay...so back to earth now. okay...tess, although she has now had a baby with max, knows that he still doesn't love her whole heartedly, so when she returns to earth with baby zan, she gives max up to liz. okay...i know that story isn't totally complete but...i was just organizing some ideas together to make it easier to understand.

Posted 08-06-2002 06:26 PM by Qfanny     Too be honest, I haven't really read everything you've written, but I am impressed that the Liz Mything still goes on - apparantly stronger than ever!

Posted 08-06-2002 06:40 PM by forever_a_dreamer     Do u think that it was at all possible that they had a set of dupes on antar too?

Posted 08-06-2002 09:45 PM by *antarian angel*     that's an interesting thought, kristen. tell us more about this theory, though. what did the dupes do on antar, and where were they? hmmm...maybe some how kivar was able to make the dupes, and he used them to help in over throwing and killing the royal four, and then sent their dupe essence to earth to kill the royal four or to send them back to antar so kivar could kill them..but what about zan...hmmm...i think we should look more into this, but we have to remember to somehow bring this theory back to liz. Oh, how about this. maybe liz is the human who is destined to save the royal four (max) from the dupes, like she did in MitC. now, i definitly don't think this was liz's only purpose, but it definitly could be one of them. liz seems to save their buts so many times, like she is their protector...hmmm...now let's think about that for a minute...liz could be their human protector, but just that doesn't mean that max and she are anything special together. maybe she is max's protector, and because she saves him, he can save everyone else. that makes liz more special i think. but then you could look at maria as michael's protector...but that's a little different. but maybe liz, as max's human protector, brought maria into the group to help protect michael and alex to protect isabel. we remember that liz is the one to tell both of them the secret, and we know that alex was very dedicated to protecting isabel, he said so, and maria looks out for michael and trys to stop him from doing stupid things. gosh, and kyle trys to protect tess, too. "You're part of the family I was trying to protect" (kyle to tess in 'we are family') okay, so if they each have a human protector, how does this make liz extra special? her deep connection to max and the fact that she helped the pod squad, and the other humans, the most? seems right... hmmm...what does everyone else think??

Posted 08-06-2002 10:21 PM by The Real Momo     Originally posted by forever a dreamer Quote: Do u think that it was at all possible that they had a set of dupes on antar too? I think that is highly unlikely. Given the Antarian political situation, Kivar would have been looking for the Royal Four, dead or alive. If there were a third set, they never would have survived the pod stage. The plan probably was to get the Royal Four "off world" ASAP to ensure that the Royal Four had the greatest chance of survival. I do think the dupes were intended to be decoys, not defective. We know that the Antarians were already grafting human and alien DNA so it suggests that they had previously visited Earth. It probably had a lot to do with their choice of Earth. If another group of pods were left on Antar, what would be the purpose of including human DNA? None. The Antarians would have made full blooded aliens and not hybrids. And the Antarian duped version of Max/Zan would have probably bore the Royal Seal, not Max if we assume that most Antarians believed like Kivar -- that humans were inferior. That eliminates the reason for sending Max and company to Earth at all. Why bother? I really believe the intention WAS to send the pods to Earth. But WHY Earth? Of all the planets out there ,,, why here? It's been the big question.The answer lies in the Parker family and it's why Max was sent to Earth -- to find Liz.

Posted 08-09-2002 02:12 PM by WR     Well, as it looks like this will be the last thread, I would like to pop in one last time and say thanks to all you wonderful people out there with you amazing ideas. I have made some wonderful friends through Roswell, and have maet with some amazing people I would never have otherwise met. It's been real fun, and I have learnt a few things about myself in the process. "Nothing gold can stay." Take care, everyone. Wayne - (WR)

Posted 08-10-2002 06:00 AM by Babit     This has been plauging me for a while, ok, I lie, its only been a few short min. but I wanted to sound professional. Ok, I think Liz has a connection with the Pod Squad, through the crash of 47 ( I hope thats the right year or I'm gonna look like a dufus..) any who, I think she was on the ship when it crashed. This might have been played out before, but...why just send two protectors? If I was the mother of Royalty, I would just send two guys out there to protect both versions of my son, I would send maybe about hmmm....lets say 10. After the crash, we know 2 and the pods survive. So Liz's spirt might have been reborn into her human spirit, bringing along some of the senses, that the other podsters should have had but didnt. She could have been someone close to the podsters on Antar, like a mentor or something. Almost everyone looked up to her, to some extent. Maybe she was an older woman who becamed involved with King Zan? How Max looks up to Liz, you would think it was a teacher ( Liz) and a student (max) Or. I could go really farfetched and say that maybe when Grandma Claudia was pregnant with Mr. Parker, the aliens injected her unborn child with something to carry on a cell of one of the deseaced protectors, ultimately coming up with Liz. As notcied in WR's The Importance of Being Elizabeth ( great story by the way ), she was the only one with Brown eyes, out of the family that we have seen. Also...something funny just came into my head....what if we were all aliens and the only reason we flocked to Roswell ( not only because of the amazing chemistry) was becasue we were aliens in are past lives??? I know since I've been watching it, I have been doing things in fours....sorry....I'm tired so I'm not thinking clearly... well, I must go before I say something else naive...

Posted 08-10-2002 08:10 AM by shapeshifter     WR, To quote an old singing cowboy from this side of the pond: Happy trails to you, until we meet again. Real Momo & Antarian Angel, RE Dupes on Antar: My first inclination on a new plot line is almost always, "Sure, why not?" and "Hmmmm...let's see...how would this work?" But then Momo's argument rang true with regards to what we know about the Dupes. Now I'm back to the first inclinations, thinking that with all the intrigues and deals and mad scientists on Antar--sure, why not? In fact, with the cloning technology in place, I bet Kvar has a spare body on ice somewhere. Quote: Originally posted by Babit: ...but I wanted to sound professional.... Babit, I really appreciate your sense of humor. Um, you were just kidding with that line, right? Anyway, if you plug a few of your words into the search engine on the Archives of Qfanny & shapeshifter (such as "Liz protector Grandma Claudia" or "Liz protector GC"), and search by "all words," you should find discussions of theories similar to yours--like Wise King Solomon wrote: there's nothing new under the Sun. Also, check out WR's story: The Importance of Being Elizabeth.

Posted 08-11-2002 06:37 PM by Reggie     On genetics: It's absurd to say that the podsters were "one half" human. We all saw how Michael was identical to his gene donor, and didn't look at all like an alien. When Max was examined in WR, he was also found to be 100% human, except for his blood. To have any chance of successfully breeding with a human (and we all want that, right?), all the podsters would have to be almost completely human. Furthermore, the suggestion that crossing a two hybrds would create a 25/50/25 mixture of possible offspring is also absurd... unless there is one, and ONLY one, alien gene present. If there are two, then they are seperately heritable, and so the variations increase exponentially. Plus, see below... *antarian angel* (quoted from shapeshifter "in rewatching WDAMYK it occurred to me that maybe this was the goal of Rath in killing Zan & Max." maybe that's true, but when zan died, the king seal didn't go to rath... Well, we don't know that. We only know that the Summit was for Zan; if Rath showed up, even with the Seal, they might have disregarded him. We do know that there was a party on Twilo which believed that Rath should have been King; and Rath did not agree. (We've been calling them Michael-worshippers, remember?) Perhaps Rath simply decided that the latest disagreement with Zan was the last straw, and flipped over to the position that he should indeed overthrow Zan... which he and Lonnie promptly did. But they still needed a figurehead "Zan" for the Summit, so they tried to use an unwitting Max. For example, they thought it was a good idea to give up The Granolyth, so Lonnie told him it was just some religious thingummy; not a useful spaceship / timeship. She figured that telling him it was a religous thing would tell him it was useless... which tells us a lot about Lonnie. Qfanny: Too be honest, I haven't really read everything you've written, but I am impressed that the Liz Mything still goes on - apparantly stronger than ever! Hey, it's Qfanny! Long time, no post! shapeshifter: RE Dupes on Antar: My first inclination on a new plot line is almost always, "Sure, why not?" and "Hmmmm...let's see...how would this work?" But then Momo's argument rang true with regards to what we know about the Dupes. Now I'm back to the first inclinations, thinking that with all the intrigues and deals and mad scientists on Antar--sure, why not? In fact, with the cloning technology in place, I bet Kvar has a spare body on ice somewhere. Interesting point... since Nikolas seems to have had a spare; and the preparations were probably in place for Zan & Co. to have spares. Mom's people just installed the "essences" in human clones rather than Twilonian clones. Remember, isn't this exactly how it was described: she mixed their essences with human genetic material? You have lived before. You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings. The podsters' essences, not alien genetic material! They were recreated "into human beings" - straight from someone who would know. The Connection: I think that Ava was King Zan's second wife - he was a widower when he married her. What Dupe Zan was looking for was his first wife. Liz is the natural reincarnation of his first wife, hence the "connection". Ava, as his "young" bride, was intended to be Queen; since the position was vacant and Twilo needed an heir to the throne. Ava always loved her King, but he didn't quite feel that way about her. King Zan's first, true love was ALiz, but she died of... ummm... plot complications. So King Zan & Co. get killed by Kivar's evil minions. Mom gets them artificially reincarnated as humans, so they can "Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms." Meanwhile, (as Kyle could have told them), ALiz gets reincarnated the natural way, as you-know-who. Hence the connection. Tess hasn't a clue, of course; none of the NM4 do. Mr. Harding probably didn't know either. Ava... well, she might.

Posted 08-11-2002 07:26 PM by shapeshifter     Quote: Originally posted by Reggie: [QB]On genetics: It's absurd to say that the podsters were "one half" human. We all saw how Michael was identical to his gene donor, and didn't look at all like an alien. When Max was examined in WR, he was also found to be 100% human, except for his blood.... All good points, Reg, but, unfortunately, not all the writers read all the scripts. And so, in the opening scene of Season 2 in SAB, we are given this sci fi revelation from Max: MAX (voiceover): Well, I guess the natural place to start is...that I'm an alien...a hybrid, actually. You know, human DNA mixed with alien DNA... Quote: Originally posted by Reggie: ...The Connection:I think that Ava was King Zan's second wife - he was a widower when he married her. What Dupe Zan was looking for was his first wife. Liz is the natural reincarnation of his first wife, hence the "connection". Ava, as his "young" bride, was intended to be Queen... Reggie, you've finally come over to the Liz-as-true-bride side? Wow! Anyway, I never thought about the signifcance of the word "young bride" in that context before. Very interesting. And re: "died of plot complications" Definitely the plague of Roswell--worse than the Skins & Blue Jelly Fish combined!

Posted 08-12-2002 02:59 PM by GraceKel     Reggie "died of plot complications" I love that one LOL!!! How delicately put that was LOL!!! Haven't been posting, not much to say but I have read the threads. Maybe I will be back to post when Season1 is on--you know the good one LOL!!! But I will say this, the reference to young bride of course can also pertain to Liz, afterall she had just graduated highschool. Also Liz had the flashes, found the orb, was there when the orb was set off, it was Liz who was having biological awakenings in SH, Liz was the one who felt it when Max died and it was Liz who was going to be killed with the other royals in the finale. So I think that these four were the royal four.

Posted 08-13-2002 08:33 PM by The Real Momo     One of one things that has always bothered me about Liz's flashes in Sexual Healing was the fact that ALL her visions were in color and that they came from a "moving" alien. Originally, I assumed this was Nasedo ... but I eliminated Nasedo because ALL the flashes Liz had with Nasedo were B & W. Different species. Nasedo was colorblind, as I imagine Langley was (same species). The pod squad was not mobile, four sacs to a pod (in fetal stage), which had to be physically moved by someone. Can't exactly run around with an orb and bury it. So if Liz was having visions from inside the craft and then again, outside the craft, who could that person be? If Zan had a first wife, Liz, whom he was looking for (as hinted by Ava), why marry Ava/Tess at all? If Zan knew "the love of his life" had died, he would not have been looking for Liz. And the marriage of Zan/Tess makes sense. But if Zan knew the "love of his life" had died and "was recreated", he would have been searching for her and a marriage between Ava and Zan would probably not have happened at all. So what are we left with? The "love of his life" killed and he didn't know about any possible "recreation" until AFTER the wedding to Ava/Tess. Well, my thoughts are all over the map on this one ... still. Perhaps Liz was not having flashes generated by Max at all, but by her own recollections. That the reason Liz has flashes is because she is "remembering" a piece of her own past or through a relative from whom she has inherited a "collective memory" gene. That Liz was really on the ship in some capacity or that one of her relatives was. Since the Parkers had been in Roswell for four generations, the paternal line seems unlikely -- therefore we are left with Liz's grandmother or Nancy Parker, her mother. As I've said before, Claudia Parker is a natural because of the time period. We don't know Claudia's origins. She's in Roswell at the right time and place. She's an archaelogist and fits with the folklore of the actual Roswell story. Nancy Parker we now know is a local girl so her parents are an avenue of exploration as well. Liz's connection to Max exists before the healing ... back to third grade, when they see each other for the first time. There is a recognization, a "joining of souls" though neither pursues each other or seems to understand what it means. It's just there, waiting for the catalyst --The Crashdown Incident -- to set it in motion. There is a six-year difference between the time Liz is born and Max is born. There seems to be no real dispute that Nancy and Jeff Parker are Liz's biological parents. Or that Liz is 100% human. She's been to the doctor several times and nothing "weird" has shown up, nor did it when she performed lab tests at school. Nothing biological to suggest that she is remotely alien. So it is unlikely that Liz was actually on the ship herself. So if Liz has an alien connection to Max, it has to come from a previous generation disguised in the form of a mutant gene. And there is still wiggle room to insert a blood connection between Max and Liz. So it appears that there may have been a human on board the ship when it crashed and that that human has a connection to Liz and Max and is responsible for the "alien abduction" info found in the Destiny Book. Or perhaps the flashes came from another member of the crew, but not a protector. That leaves an unaccounted for person in the shadows not identified. Since shapeshifters have been toying playing "politics" and trying to "shape" destiny and Kivar is trying "to make history repeat it" and Michael worshippers are trying "to prevent history from repeating itself" and Max himself is trying "to change history to prevent the EOTW", then it's probably safe to say that whoever was on the ship had no qualms about toying with "destiny" as well as "bio-engineering", etc. The problem again leads us back to Liz. Liz is the only person with an interest in "science" and she's also the one who "changes" destiny. So, in a way, it does place Liz on the ship. Well, what if Liz is responsible for it all?

Posted 08-13-2002 11:38 PM by Reggie     Shapeshifter: All good points, Reg, but, unfortunately, not all the writers read all the scripts. And so, in the opening scene of Season 2 in SAB, we are given this sci fi revelation from Max: MAX (voiceover): Well, I guess the natural place to start is...that I'm an alien...a hybrid, actually. You know, human DNA mixed with alien DNA... Heh. Would you buy a used biology textbook from this guy? But seriously, he and we know about the green stuff in his blood,but not what exactly it is. It may be a part of Max, his own flesh-and-blood... or not. It could be a residue left from his time in the pods, which his marrow did not make and his spleen does not remove. It could just be a marker, so that the Twilonians could always tell that he's The One. Or it could be nanobots, keeping him healthy... Anyway, unless S1 Liz says it's so, I'd accept other possibilities. Reggie, you've finally come over to the Liz-as-true-bride side? Wow! Anyway, I never thought about the signifcance of the word "young bride" in that context before. Very interesting. Welll... not exactly. Most of the "True Bride" theories go something like this: If Liz were the True Bride, then Tess is a false bride, therefore DIE GERBIL DIE !!! I'm giving Tess her due: she was married to King Zan, and she worships him as Courtney worshipped Michael. Pictures and all. Look how Tess acted, during the meeting at the beginning of Harvest. It's just that King Zan had to marry someone (as King, he needed an heir), and she was acceptable; but not quite beloved. Think about Princess Diana: she loved and married a big-eared Royal, but his heart was elsewhere. In my theory, King Zan still carried the flame for his late first wife, but had to marry again for professional reasons. He had no idea that his beloved's spirit would find him again. And Liz is still not an ! But her soul was carried by one, once, in a previous incarnation. Thus I can bring in Kyle's Buddhism, without entangling the Indians as aliens or some such thing. And this explains the "connection", too. GraceKel: But I will say this, the reference to young bride of course can also pertain to Liz, after all she had just graduated highschool. Also Liz had the flashes, found the orb, was there when the orb was set off, it was Liz who was having biological awakenings in SH, Liz was the one who felt it when Max died and it was Liz who was going to be killed with the other royals in the finale. So I think that these four were the royal four. No, the Royal Four were the folks in the pods; the reincarnated aliens: Zan, Rath, Lonnie, and Ava. And Liz was still a sophmore when the "young bride" business started. Liz's "awakenings" may have more to do with the Change caused when she was Healed; like someone who's had a blood transfusion will gain temporary immunities to diseases, which the blood donor had immunities to. Or baby gets immunities from it's mother's milk. Momo: So if Liz has an alien connection to Max, it has to come from a previous generation disguised in the form of a mutant gene. And there is still wiggle room to insert a blood connection between Max and Liz. No; as you said, Liz is genuinely human. Only by using reincarnation, can you get her to have a soul that "isn't from around here". The Healing, and whatever mojo was transferred in order to jump-start Liz, would explain Liz's new alien abilities. And why in heaven's name do you want a blood connection between Maz and Liz? A closet Outsider, are you? Ewww. Even if you go along with the "two consenting adults" rule, still ewww. Or perhaps the flashes came from another member of the crew, but not a protector. That leaves an unaccounted for person in the shadows not identified. I'll buy that. It's the Second Shapeshifter Theory. Kal couldn't have been Tic-tac, because Tic-tac did shapeshift. We can't be sure that there were not more than 4 aliens aboard the ship, only that after the crash, the FBI saw four of them. Frankly, I don't really regard the third season as cannonical anyway.

Posted 08-14-2002 04:18 AM by Babit     Yes, I was kidding with the sounding professional thing I'm glad someone likes my sense of humor.. ok...time for me to get silly for just a bit here ( I have to go, and I had a dream about this) but you say Liz's grandfather was named Pete...Peter Parker...is anyone else senseing a crossover here??? sorry, I shall now go wallow in icecream rethinking my comment, and cry myself to sleep...later I will bring a legit reason to why I said that...hopefully

Posted 08-14-2002 04:27 PM by Vihmakass     ...i read posts and im hooked again.Does this is true that this is last Myth thread? No,pleas!! I want more!I need more! --------------------- Now spec about how Liz is related to Antar in my silly stile. Does we know how old was AZan when he met girl (Larek never say that exactly Tess or DAva was that girl bc. he remembered only her Antar look) at lake? He was young and shy and not king yet. If we speculate that tthis girl was ALiz - they met, fall in love and shared kiss at ballnight and then they married. She is married to now KingZan (old king was dead - why?).Then AZan started make World better place - he was happy and wants other beings be happy to - positive hero. Then - bummm! He is despot and bad ruler and bad person.What causes this kind change? Sometimes persons who had big lost changing egoistic and rude bc of total grief. Does he lost ALiz? Does he lost only ALiz? Do you remember that weird flash what Isabel and Mike shared? Flash with baby? Now, if this baby and Liz where abducted by Khivar and co.And maybe killed maybe...? And if there was so higly developed science and some humancreation project at work...maybe ALiz and Ababy escaped with some faithful scientist.They hide Ababy(in humanDNA with alien essentce) somehow somewhere in Earth and only Granolithe can go there to bring him back(this is why 5aliennations want it back - they what Ababy who is legal heir, RMax and DZan are littlebit too human for them and littlebit too dead), ALiz get thick affected by beeing here without protection...and old scientist?shapeshifter was doing something very hightecnological hocuspocus. They sent word to Antar but time is passed and for political purposes AZan has shosed new young bride, then message arrived and from bride enemy gets word that ALiz and Ababy is survived somehow - AZan makes some preparation (collecting human DNA, exploring Earth for ALiz) and Enemys (Khivar and co) saw that their plan get AZan married to AAva is failure.They make new plan - littlebit naive and romantic Vilondra - they kill them and bride too (bc she know littlebit too much). Mommy makes clones and bc she knows from message that ALiz is passed but nor knows how deceitful is young bride - sents them to Earth. Main mission is grow up and learn use all powers and skills what they has on Antar (we have similar powers?) and find Ababy....who is original heir ...and with this get back rigth to trone.(green thing in their blood is protection if they return to Antar, with 100%human blood they dont survive) ALiz wasnt passed away but was very ill, when ship with pods was crashed she and Old shapeshifter saw this.After that ALiz was died and Old shapeshifter somehow managed transfer her essence in human form without makeing hybrid - something like reincarnation...And then .... ok. in my eyes this can be plausible explanation how it was...but (This makes Liz real queen and 100% human and real mother of heir. In this version Tess needed only hand mark on her tummy (and like we know Liz has it first) for Granolithe to geting Ababy - who is now human). All this makes one good Fiction - eh why i cant learn english? If somebody wants...take and write...

Posted 08-14-2002 05:26 PM by shapeshifter     Babbit--hmmm...Liz's Grandpa was SpiderMan? Wow, we could run with that one knowing that Brendan is a Spiderman fan--maybe Grandpa Dupree is her grandpa too? Probably just the writers having fun, but it would make a great backstory. Quote: Originally posted by Reggie: Originally posted by GraceKel: ...the reference to young bride of course can also pertain to Liz, after all she had just graduated highschool. Also Liz had the flashes, found the orb, was there when the orb was set off, it was Liz who was having biological awakenings in SH, Liz was the one who felt it when Max died and it was Liz who was going to be killed with the other royals in the finale. So I think that these four were the royal four.... No, the Royal Four were the folks in the pods; the reincarnated aliens: Zan, Rath, Lonnie, and Ava. And Liz was still a sophmore when the "young bride" business started. Liz's "awakenings" may have more to do with the Change caused when she was Healed; like someone who's had a blood transfusion will gain temporary immunities to diseases, which the blood donor had immunities to. Or baby gets immunities from it's mother's milk. Reggie, IMNSHO, too literal. Like Vihmakass said,"...an old scientist/shapeshifter was doing something wery highly technological hocus pocus..." Plus, we have the precedent of Max "transmorgriphying" via Clayton. So now that Liz is "changed" and Tess is gone, Liz has in essence (pun intended) become the Royal 4